[mchaver]

There are language with even smaller sets of unique sounds that do not have tones like Hawaiian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_phonology

There are many common homophones in English that are distinguished by context. Conversation tends to have a lot of context. As a Mandarin speaker, I've never really experienced this context problem. You can make up some artificial examples in English and Chinese but they don't really reflect average communication. Like "The bat and the bow are on the table". It is important to know that a good percentage of words in Mandarin are multi-syllabic (not just one character).

Mandarin can be written phonetically perfectly fine. Currently the most popular systems are Hanyu Pinyin (used in China, Singapore and Malaysia) and Zhuyin (used in Taiwan). Kids learn these systems in school before they learn characters. Chinese characters have a strong historical and cultural value, that's why they are still around.

[soundnote]

People simply have a LOT of romanticized bullshit views built around Chinese characters, or the relative difficulty of different ways of writing because they're fluent in the language and have spent thousands of hours immersed in a sinograph-based writing system. Of course a different writing system is difficult to read even if it's ultimately much easier to learn, you have no practice! It's like writing English in Latin script vs. writing it in runes, both work fine, but we're practiced on recognizing words in Latin script. ᛖᛚᛞᛖᚱ ᚠᚢᚦᚨᚱᚲ, ᚾᛟᛏ ᛋᛟ ᛗᚢᚲᚺ.

Vietnamese is written in alphabet without issue. The Dungan people of Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan even write their Mandarin-descended language with the Cyrillic script without any tone markings at all - the tones are supplied in a dictionary, but that's it. It works.

Most of the homophones etc. stuff come from people having decided that sinographs are good and then coming up with justifications for keeping them, not really an actual analysis whether Sinitic languages or Japanese would work without. This is a Chinese dictionary: https://imgur.com/a/rdxVh9i

> Mandarin can be written phonetically perfectly fine.

To reinforce this to the readers: https://www.pinyin.info/readings/pinyin_riji_duanwen.html

The author is a native Mandarin speaker who specifically requested that her work not be rendered in sinographs. It should be standard Pinyin orthography except that the author writes 'de' as 'd'.

[mchaver]

> Of course a different writing system is difficult to read even if it's ultimately much easier to learn, you have no practice!

Yes, people often confuse the "way I do it", "the way it's always been done" or the "official way" as the only way it can be done.

[knolax]

You could also write English as an abjad with no vowels but not sane person would consider it. You can aslo splel einlsgh lkie tihs and msot people colud raed it flriay esilay.[4] The fact that your type demand Chinese writing to not only be phonetic but also not have tones is pretty telling that your motivation for using phonetic writing has pretty much nothing to do with "it's easier" or "it's phonetically regular" but just from some sort of disdain for the Chinese language in general. These sorts of phonetic reforms also require writing in a style that is essentially newspeak on steroids, such as your second source, which uses no vocabulary above maybe a 2nd grade level, and yet still I couldn't figure out what some of the words were supposed to be.

Here's another quote from the source you use:

> "There is no doubt that romanized Classical Chinese would be gibberish"

Invariably these proponents of phonetic writing for Chinese are non-native speakers[1] from the west who seem to have an intense hatred for any aspect of the Chinese language that they consider "Classic Chinese" derived[3]. This of course extends to any sentence that goes beyond "where's the bathroom" and "hello my name is bob" except not even the second example because Chinese names are what these people would consider "classical derived". So you propose a system that would not be able to transcribe __names__. Go to Korean wikipedia and click on a disambiguation page[0]. Or go ask them to show you their ID card[2]. These are a people whose entire national identity is based around not using Chinese writing. A lifetime of both native chinese speakers and non-chinese alike not being able to pronounce my NAME right when rendered in Pinyin is apparently not evidence enough that it's an inadequate system.

> This is a Chinese dictionary: https://imgur.com/a/rdxVh9i

You also leave out that double digit percentages of the Dungan language comes from Arabic and Persian, Russian, Turkic etc. Not even their names are Chinese. What little Chinese is left is a fraction of the amount of Chinese morphemes a normal Chinese speaker knows. Even in your example the entry for "da" has 10 semantically, phonetically, and etymologically different entries. The PRC also tried to enforce phonetic writing on the Yi and Zhuang languages, which had their own scripts that work on the same principles as Chinese. The result was low literacy rates and a population that predominantly still used the old writing system.

I could very well turn your argument against you. Why doesn't English spell pique, peak, peek the same? Pours, pores, poors? Why did a phonetic writing system slowly evolve into what is essentially a logographic script. Why were you able to read the above example relatively easily, but sdrow eht esrever I fi ylkciuq sa ylraen ton? It's almost as if mature readers of all scripts focus primarily on morpheme clusters when reading, and whatever gains you have from supposedly phonetically regular spelling are offset by that, assuming no pronunciation differences of course. By the time you force everyone to either memorize the "proper" pronunciations or simply force them to only use your privileged dialect your orthography will already be out of date. You can reform again, but by then your lexicon will be so etymologically and semantically starved[6] that you'll probably have to construct all your technical terms from some dead language with a stable orthography anyways.

> an actual analysis whether Sinitic languages

It's called general Chinese. The only phonetic system that works for most dialects, and whose spelling requires the same amount of memorization as writing with logographic characters. Of course if your kind had your way, by the time you could force it on every Chinese speaker it would be out of date and not even regular anymore. Of course these discussions usually don't even touch on the concept of morpheme regularity.

Of course all this text is useless because you probably don't speak Chinese well enough to evaluate any primary source, and the motivation for all this is less rational and more a personal vendetta you non-native speakers hold against Chinese being "too hard to learn"[5]. What's funny is it's the same sentiment you expats have for Vietnamese and Korean, Arabic or even Dutch. Even if we lobotomize our language for your sake you'll simply demand we all adopt English anyways.

[0] https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%88%98%EB%8F%84_(%EB%8F%99%...

[1] or some sort of deranged newspeak proponent, usually diaspora

[2] https://learn.microsoft.com/en- us/answers/questions/815368/acceptable-types-of-identification-%28az-900-test%29?orderby=newest

[3] Usually the argument against 施氏食獅史, somehow a several sentence long story every native chinese reader would understand being rendered as gibbereished shi shi shi shi shi shi, or maybe shi Shi shi shi shi if you're generous, is a totally reasonable reform in your eyes.

[4] https://www.ddginc-usa.com/can-you-read-this.htm

[5] Not limited to language apparently, no cultural differences can be tolerated by you globalists types. Even chopsticks compel your type to proclaim > "Really? A fork and a spoon is far more superior. It shocks me that chopsticks are still used and that people like using them" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35877051

[6] > Romanticized bullshit views built around Chinese characters.

Leads to Oxymoronic statements where Refusing To "Romanize" is because of "Romanticism". How absurdity like this is supposed to be easy for non-native learners and native children to grasp is beyond me.

[ddeck]

I'm surprised you've never experienced this. Even names often require an explanation, because the pronunciation is insufficient to convey which words (i.e. characters) are used.

>Mandarin can be written phonetically perfectly fine

It can, and I use hanyu pinyin daily, but my point is that given the small space of possible sounds, it often has a great deal of ambiguity, and is mentally taxing to read. Have you ever tried reading an essay or book in pinyin? With syllabic spacing? There will be many places where it is simply not possible to know for certain what a particular word is. And then there are text books, scientific books.

Chinese characters do indeed have strong historical and cultural value, but that is not why they are still around. They are still around because they are essential to the written language.

[mchaver]

> Even names often require an explanation

You can still write the name in Hanyu Pinyin or Zhuyin perfectly fine. It is just that we like character names and that most characters are valid to be used in names so there is a lot more flexibility in what can be a name versus other cultures where there is a less flexible set of names. You can still do something similar in English where you say your name is "rainbow" but you spell it "rhaynbeau", people aren't going to be able to guess that.

> given the small space of possible sounds

Again, see languages like Hawaiian and Vietnamese. They also have small sets of sounds and do fine with romanization.

> Have you ever tried reading an essay or book in pinyin? With syllabic spacing?

Yup, it is just that most people are used to reading Chinese characters and not in romanized Mandarin. There may be other advantages to Chinese characters like quicker recognition and occupying a smaller space, and I am not trying to advocate for eradication of Chinese characters, but I want to stress that is perfectly possible to read and write Mandarin phonetically and characters are not essential.

Also I read and write Taiwanese (Hokkien) in romanized form. Feels like a waste of time to worry about characters, but many people do and end up not writing Taiwanese or using mixed script.

[knolax]

Every forum post I've seen mentioning 白話字 and 台羅 mentions how hard it is to read and how few Hokkien speakers can even read it. The few proponents for it seem to be holding on for religious reasons (Presbyterians).

>You can still do something similar in English where you say your name is "rainbow" but you spell it "rhaynbeau",

This is an insulting borderline racist comparison and ties to the same old western trope of treating our names like random sounds. "rhaynbeau" Isn't a word and doesn't carry any meaning.

[mchaver]

> Every forum post I've seen mentioning 白話字 and 台羅 mentions how hard it is to read and how few Hokkien speakers can even read it. The few proponents for it seem to be holding on for religious reasons (Presbyterians).

I am not sure what you mean by holding on for religious reasons? IThere are lot of reasons to write Taiwanese. Anyway, I don't know anything about these forums or have Presbyterian affiliation, but in my real life I use it quite often with friends and family. The reason few people can read it is because few people have learned it. For the majority of Taiwanese speakers it is only a spoken language. Written Taiwanese does not play a large role in public education in Taiwan.

> "rhaynbeau" Isn't a word and doesn't carry any meaning.

It's an imperfect example for non-Chinese speakers to illustrate that it can be hard to guess the character of another person's name but people still understand the sounds when hearing it. A lot of thought goes into choosing the characters for a Chinese name. Other cultures have names that are not related to meaning or are separated very far form the original meaning (the words are for names). Others allow variations on previous names or borrowing from other langauges so likewise those names might be challenging to know the spelling.

[soundnote]

> They are still around because they are essential to the written language.

This argument used to be made in Korea, yet the country seems to have transitioned to alphabetic writing without issue. A lot of the tax of reading phonetic scripts of Chinese or Japanese is that fluent speakers are simply not at all used to it, even if they can read it.

For example:

ᚦᛁᛋ ᚨᚱᚷᚢᛗᛖᚾᛏ ᚢᛋᛖᛞ ᛏᛟ ᛒᛖ ᛗᚨᛞᛖ ᛁᚾ ᚲᛟᚱᛖᚨ, ᛃᛖᛏ ᚦᛖ ᚲᛟᚢᚾᛏᚱᛃ ᛋᛖᛖᛗᛋ ᛏᛟ ᚺᚨᚹᛖ ᛏᚱᚨᚾᛋᛁᛏᛁᛟᚾᛖᛞ ᛏᛟ ᚨᛚᛈᚺᚨᛒᛖᛏᛁᚲ ᚹᚱᛁᛏᛁᛝ ᚹᛁᚦᛟᚢᛏ ᛁᛋᛋᚢᛖ. ᚨ ᛚᛟᛏ ᛟᚠ ᚦᛖ ᛏᚨᚲᛋ ᛟᚠ ᚱᛖᚨᛞᛁᛝ ᛈᚺᛟᚾᛖᛏᛁᚲ ᛋᚲᚱᛁᛈᛏᛋ ᛟᚠ ᚲᚺᛁᚾᛖᛋᛖ ᛟᚱ ᛃᚨᛈᚨᚾᛖᛋᛖ ᛁᛋ ᚦᚨᛏ ᚠᛚᚢᛖᚾᛏ ᛋᛈᛖᚨᚲᛖᚱᛋ ᚨᚱᛖ ᛋᛁᛗᛈᛚᛃ ᚾᛟᛏ ᚨᛏ ᚨᛚᛚ ᚢᛋᛖᛞ ᛏᛟ ᛁᛏ, ᛖᚹᛖᚾ ᛁᚠ ᚦᛖᛃ ᚲᚨᚾ ᚱᛖᚨᛞ ᛁᛏ.

Same normal English, but Elder Futhark as the script. If you grew up reading that you'd read without issue. Now? It's a pain.