[apnew]

I also _rent_. I hate food cooked on electric stoves, so when I was looking to rent, anything that dint have gas stove was automatic non-starter for me.

This whole argument that “you oppose a forced choice so you must hate poor people” is just a straw-man. Just because you prefer things one way doesn’t mean govt has a business telling me how I should cook my food.

[crooked-v]

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the induction plate (like a round-bottom wok).

[rayiner]

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware?

Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

[tptacek]

People in China routinely use woks on electric stoves; they're just as common in China as they are here. There's a lot of mythology about woks and wok hei, most of which is based on people confusing restaurant cooking techniques with home cooking. This issue isn't racially coded.

[Freedom2]

This is my experience as well. I've spoken to Chinese co-workers who cook a lot of traditional food at home, and they have zero issues with electric stoves (induction or no) for cooking with a wok.

As for those who claim that gas stoves are needed for wok cooking w/ specific techniques, most people who I've actually asked about what they cook on the wok is basically "fried rice", or even worse, they don't actually have a wok at all, and are using the issue as a strawman to complain about government overreach.

[tptacek]

For what it's worth: I have a fussy gas range and I'd be peeved to have to give it up, and I don't have an opinion about whether it's good or bad to require new construction to use induction. But the racial angle on this is risible. It's evidence of bad faith argument.

[usrusr]

It's a recurring pattern: people not being able to tell "like in the country I/my ancestors came from" apart from "like in the decade/century I/my ancestors left the old country". In the emigrant's mind, the old country is forever locked in the old times. Can't really blame them for it, it's a natural mistake to make, but a mistake nonetheless.

[schrectacular]

I lived in China for a decade and never once saw an electric stove.

[tptacek]

I've lived in Oak Park, IL for over a decade, shopping for houses several times, and have never seen an electric stove. What's your point?

What's clearly the case is that homes in China do not generally have the ultra-powered gas wok burners that restaurants do, which is what people are talking about when they talk about what's distinctive about cooking on a wok.

[schrectacular]

My point was that in my experience they are far less common in China than in the US, as you were claiming. I guess one of us could go look up stats bit given the cost of the item and the relative affluence of the countries I seriously doubt they are close. What was your point in bringing up that they were similarly ubiquitous in both places?

[fsckboy]

woks are round (hemispherical) on the bottom, gas is better for heating that shape

[culturestate]

I lived in mainland China and Hong Kong for nearly a decade and had electric induction stoves in every apartment. Anecdotal evidence is, as ever, weak evidence.

[schrectacular]

Interesting. Maybe it's a north/south thing? I was in Beijing. Or maybe it was an affluence thing? I can totally imagine an indication stove being a status symbol. But they are far from ubiquitous and common in the country overall, of that I can assure you.

[qwytw]

> what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction

I'd assume nobody would install a resistance stove in a new apartment (since this only applies to those)

[bretticus]

They certainly won’t install an expensive induction stove in housing for poor people

[qwytw]

What proportion of new housing is built for "poor people" to live? I was under the assumption that most new developments are aimed at the mid/high end of the market which makes older buildings more accessible to low income households.

Also induction stoves are quite cheap nowadays (in relation to the overall cost) so it would seem absurd for me to get a resistive one even if you could save $100-200

[tanseydavid]

>> so it would seem absurd for me to get a resistive one even if you could save $100-200

But if it were 30 apartment units, then the cost difference on paper would amount to $3000-$6000 (and it would probably be judged in this way, rather than the cost difference per unit).

[doikor]

Induction cooktops are not expensive anymore. This would have been an argument 10 or 15 years ago but not today.

The price difference between a resistive 4 element resistive and a inductive cooktop is like 20€ maybe 30€ tops. So a cheap one will cost you between 200€ to 250€

(maybe the pricing in US is totally different but that is what you pay for the cheap stuff here in Finland)

[geoduck14]

I live in America. Builders will definitely cut corners to save $20. Hands down. Even brand new houses that sell for $500k will have "builder quality paint" that needs to be repainted in 5-7 years because it is cheap. If they cut corners on paint, they will cut corners on your stove.

[DocTomoe]

It is arguments like these that make me happy I live in a country where you rent a flat and bring your own kitchen (and appliances).

[lostlogin]

> And will they have induction safe cookware?

Cant you just put a steel plate under any pan, and then it’s induction compatible?

Ideally you’d have compatible pans, but you don’t have to.

[cmclaughlin]

Yes it’s possible to use a transfer plate to adapt cookware that’s not induction compatible, but it’s very inefficient. One of the benefits I appreciate of induction cooking is not heating up my house while cooking - a transfer plate would negate that.

I understand not everyone wants to buy or can afford new cookware, but cast iron pans are very cheap. Also see brands such as t-fal that make affordable non-stick aluminum cookware with a small steel bottom to make them induction compatible.

[lobocinza]

Not all kinds of steel have strong magnetic properties. I had to buy a new pan when I moved to induction because my steel pan didn't work at all.

[blevin]

We got a $75 portable induction unit and it’s all I ever use. Our wok works great on it, as do all our other pans except 1. Using the gas cooktop now feels like cooking with a Bic lighter. Admittedly it is not a high end expensive one.

[Aeolun]

Induction these days is almost as cheap as gas, not sure if that makes a difference any more.

I still like looking on gas a lot better.

[eulgro]

> Resistance cooktops are slow and weak

Resistive is just fine. No way I'm throwing out my 20 years old stove to save 2 minutes boiling water. Once the coil is red hot there's virtually no time difference with induction.

[dan-robertson]

I think the reason people usually don’t like resistive cooktops is that they change temperature slowly so it is hard to adjust things to the right temperature.

[cmclaughlin]

They also transfer heat to the house, whereas induction does not. Huge benefit in hotter climates

[YurgenJurgensen]

Also they're capable of melting dark coloured soft plastic with radiant heat even when they've been switched off.

[lostlogin]

I’d challenge anything to a race with a decent induction cooktop. I doubt gas is quicker, it’s silly fast to boil water.

That said, upgrading for this reason would be very silly.

[vel0city]

> No way I'm throwing out my 20 years old stove to save 2 minutes boiling water

A normal electric stove isn't even going to be two minutes slower to boil. Depending on the stoves in question, the resistive stove might even be faster to a boil than the gas stove, even if the gas stove is rated for more BTUs.

[otterley]

Induction cooktops are like 3-5x the cost of resistive ones, and so very few homes for rent -even ones with electric cooktops - have them.

[lostlogin]

Are they?

New Zealand is ludicrous marked up in terms of consumer goods, and I’ve just checked pricing. The cheapest is resistive electric. Then fractionally more is gas. Induction costs approximately double for 4 hobs (for 2 hobs it’s about 50% more than resistive).

If you count installation, both electric options are going to be less expensive than gas. If the big cable needs running for induction, the cost might be similar to gas.

Not factored in, cleaning. My god is induction nice to maintain.

[wepple]

Gas is rare and expensive in NZ, I knew very few people who had it. In NYC every house does. My clothes dryer runs off gas. It’s dirt cheap.

[teruakohatu]

Gas cooktops were very popular and are still common in New Zealand. It used to be legal (within building code) to run a small 9kg gas bottle (BBQ size) under your cooktop in a kitchen cupboard, so very cheap to install. Resistive cooktops were and are pretty aweful.

Gas indoors is now considered a health hazard even with range hood, and while you can still buy gas cooktops, I haven't seen a new build with gas in a long time.

[Wowfunhappy]

I'm actually so confused about this.

When I was in college, I bought a portable induction cooker off Amazon for $60. It was the best. I could boil a large pot of water in about the same time as the gas stove I had at home. (I never timed it, but it felt basically the same.)

I could have bought four of those induction cookers for less than $250. If I ever built a house (I currently rent an apartment and am stuck with gas), I would at least be tempted to literally do that, instead of spending the money on a "real" cooking range.

Why are full ranges so expensive?

[lobocinza]

Probably marketing as portable and full range are different markets/consumers. Could also be due to volume. Full ranges might be manufactured at a smaller and less efficient scale. It's also possible that they have better components, are more durable, have more features and more power. Induction cookers can cook faster than gas.

[AdamJacobMuller]

And if the government mandates electric stoves, which of those (restive or inductive) do you think the landlords of cheaper apartments are going to pick?

[freetime2]

Anecdotal, but in my cheap apartment (like $300/mo) there is an induction stove. This is not in New York, of course, but still it couldn’t have been that expensive to install.

[zajio1am]

> induction cooktops are just plain better than gas

I generally prefer induction to gas, but there is one disadvantage - uneven heating of large thin pans. On induction, a part of pan directly above coils can be > 50 degC hotter than its border. This can be mitigated by using pans with thick bottom with good heat conductivity, but then you get higher thermal inertia.

[op00to]

Gas heats large thin pans unevenly too.

[swearwolf]

Resistance cooktops are fine too, you just have to learn to adjust to them. I’ve had one in all but one home I’ve ever lived in, and it’s second nature at this point. Every time I try to cook on a gas stove I burn whatever I’m making until I remember how to use them.

[kleiba]

This is such baloney - there's so many way more relevant factors to the taste of food then which power source was used to provide heat. I bet if you did a blind tasting you'd not be able to tell the difference.

[balderdash]

When people say they don’t like electric stoves, what they are saying is that they don’t like the PROCESS of cooking on an electric stove, and hence the results are not as good

[Pigalowda]

I don’t like cooking on the electric stove top because it provides uneven heating. It’s easier to clean though.

[lobocinza]

IMO it's more even in a induction stove than in a gas stove. But maybe that is due to the more expensive frying pan I had to buy.

[ryan-allen]

Induction is the best of both worlds, but you do have to have induction pans. Stainless steel last a lifetime, and are not _that_ expensive, and you can also use cast iron!

[balderdash]

What I don’t like about induction is there are no visual cues (lots of flames - low flames) and that if you tilt your pan to move things around you lose basically all your heat source

[lobocinza]

> Stainless steel last a lifetime

Yes but not the teflon coating.

[quadrifoliate]

> many way more relevant factors to the taste of food then which power source was used to provide heat.

Yeah, but not many more relevant ones to the actual cooking.

> I bet if you did a blind tasting you'd not be able to tell the difference.

You can't do a blind cooking. How often do you cook food on the stove yourself? If you do cook quite often and still insist that gas and electric stoves are equivalent, I'd be very surprised.

Now I definitely don't want to say that I definitely can't do without gas stoves — if they have a negative health and environmental impact, I could be easily convinced to switch to induction stoves, for example. But electric really don't cut it in my experience.

[smegger001]

I have to agree with you. I grew up with electric coil stoves, and learned to cook with them, and had them most of my adult life so far until a few years ago when we bought our current home it came a gas stove/oven. I love it, I cooks so much better. Turn the knob and heat is just there now across the whole cook surface, the oven heats fast enough i don't bother to preheat anymore. the wok sucked on the coil stove.

[osigurdson]

How did we ever get to the point where we think it is fine to tell someone else how something tastes?

[geoduck14]

It started with arrogance

[apnew]

I’m gonna take your comment at it’s most charitable interpretation instead of getting hung up on your unnecessary emotional first line. There exists a lot of culinary processes outside of one’s personal bubble.

Please let me know what you’re willing to bet and we’ll take this forward.

[uwagar]

i like to roast my aubergine for babaganoush on an open flame. try that on an induction cooker and let me know?

[kerkeslager]

Another poster has suggested that you try a butane torch, but I want to point out, that's not just an alternative, that's a better way to do it. It's much easier to move a small torch than the entire dish, so you can keep the flame moving and get a much more even roast. An aubergine (eggplant for this side of the pond) has enough water content to be pretty forgiving, but if you're roasting pita or something else with low water content, a stove will almost inevitably give you burnt spots which taste bad and contain carcinogens. It's maybe not bad enough to be a dealbreaker for a home cook, but you won't see a nice restaurant doing it this way.

And that's setting aside all the other possibilities a torch opens up, like flan or crusting cheese, which are best done from the top.

[uwagar]

i dont know how labor intensive the butane torch is. normally id impale my aubergine on a fork and put it on a small open gas flame and do other things, its takes a while say at least 20-30 mins.

and the butane torch isnt gonna put in harmful chemicals more than my gas flame?

[kerkeslager]

Well, you do have to actively use the torch, so it is a bit more labor intensive, but you definitely don't have to sit there with a torch for 20-30 minutes.

I haven't made baba ganoush this way so take it with a grain of salt, but the way I've approached fruits with similar water content (i.e. squash or apples) is to bake for an amount of time (which is going to give you a more consistent cook all the way through than roasting anyway) and then finish with the butane torch, for a crispy roasted exterior. If you're using a toaster oven without covering, that will already give you some crispiness on the exterior, so you'll likely be able to get the exterior you want with under a minute of active torching.

The sources I can find seem to indicate that butane actually burns at a lower temperature than natural gas, but you make up for this by putting the flame directly on the food, so I'd guess that the food gets hotter (I wouldn't trust sources that say this confidently, as I can't think of a good way to experimentally verify this). It seems like this gives a higher temperature contrast which gives a higher texture contrast between the interior/exterior of the food. It's subjective whether that's a good thing but I personally think it's better.

> and the butane torch isnt gonna put in harmful chemicals more than my gas flame?

I don't know, and I would distrust most sources that claim to know. Natural gas is used for a lot of things besides cooking, so I'm not sure how much effort is put into the purity of the natural gas mixture, and that's putting aside all the piping between source and destination which could introduce all sorts of stuff from molds to plastics. I'm not aware of anyone making claims about the safety of natural gas flames and food. In contrast, butane torch fuels are often explicitly intended for culinary use, and advertising makes lots of claims such as "Near zero impurities" and "No residual oders"[1] (the misspelling is theirs). Without any credible independent verification, I personally don't think these claims are worth anything.

That said, natural gas is a much more complicated mix of stuff than butane, and the chemical reaction of combustion is much more complicated. Butane, in a perfect combustion, should produce CO2 and water, while natural gas, in a perfect combustion, will produce CO2, CO (carbon monoxide), water, NOx and SOx compounds (the latter mostly due to additives to give it an odor). Perfect combustion is a hypothetical reaction that doesn't exist in real life, however, so I can't say how well that hypothetical reaction translates to practical reality.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Culinary-Universal-Cocktails-Charcute...

[uwagar]

thank you appreciate your detailed reply.

[rpastuszak]

Staying away from the flame war (pun intended), but regarding baba ganoush: you might get better results with an electric oven (grill/broiler) and a cheap gas torch.

[uwagar]

this sounds like a good possibility. could you ball park some timings for each? thanks.

[oblio]

Is it something that you cook daily? If it's occasional, maybe you could get a small butane gas burner or something equivalent?

[uwagar]

yeah occasional. but id terribly miss home if i didnt eat it just the way i make it (my mum made actually). its a major reason why i didnt switch to all electric!

[qzx_pierri]

You’re reaching so desperately for a way to defend this blatant overreach, and I think you missed the original point.

[oblio]

I think we need to ditch the gas infrastructure and completely get rid of natural gas lobby and influence. No gas burners at all, electricity for everything.

From a climate perspective and also from a safety and health perspective.

Gas should be opt-in, not opt-out.

And I'm perfectly fine with this being regulated because the free market sold us leaded gasoline 60+ years after they introduced it maliciously, themselves, for example.

[yunohn]

I assume you make non-roasted dishes as well? I’d like to say the majority of dishes don’t need a flame - but I’m sure you would provide a list of exceptions.

[DocTomoe]

Why have a heating unit for food at all if we can all survive on gruel at room temperature?

"You don't need it, so you can't have it" is a dangerous argument.

[yunohn]

Kindly do not make ad-absurdum arguments.

My point is that you need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. Some individuals wanting baba-ganoush in NY should not be the reason to avoid electrification for the others.

I appreciate that forced illegalisation is off-putting, but like others have said, renters don’t get a choice and landlords will avoid all expenditures. We need a way to help the majority wean off gas.

[DocTomoe]

> Some individuals wanting baba-ganoush in NY should not be the reason to avoid electrification for the others.

What stops the others from having an electric stove, while natural gas infrastructure is still available? Are there living units in NY that have natural gas, but no electricity?

> renters don’t get a choice

Electric stovetops are about 30 dollars for two-plate solutions, if you decide for yourself that natural gas is not for you.

[bombcar]

All I know is I've yet to see an all-electric commercial kitchen.

I assume they exist somewhere, but I've yet to see one.

[beepbooptheory]

Portable induction stoves were used in a few kitchens I've worked in, but as a supplementary tool, e.g., the pastry guy needs to make jam while the line is really busy.

The main thing that makes electric stoves hard for a professional kitchen is ultimately speed and space. You need every single burner during a rush, and you need to be reacting quick, and there is usually very limited space. If I need to stop the heat on my pan, I need to stop it now. An electric top requires you to actually move the pan off the burner to somewhere else, but good luck finding a spot without butting in on the garde manger or grill guy. A gas stove offers the flexibility of being able to leave food there until its ready to plate.

[Wowfunhappy]

> An electric top requires you to actually move the pan off the burner to somewhere else

Is this true of induction? I've never used induction for anything more complicated than pasta, but I would have thought that since the surface (basically) doesn't get hot, turning it off would function the same way as a gas stove.

[cmclaughlin]

No that’s not true for induction - the controls are immediate and very precise.

[lostlogin]

Do you really think you can tell the difference between food cooked with electricity and food cooked with gas?

[ramraj07]

I am pro banning gas stoves but that doesn’t mean electric is great. Electric sucks ass, even ignoring some things you just cannot do without gas (like make proper rotis) their heating is slow and uneven. At the least induction is fast.

[foepys]

Not to invalidate your point (because I have never made rotis) but this suspiciously sounds like you need better cookware.

[ramraj07]

There’s definitely a level of confidently-incorrect cringe here. Please tell me how I should do this https://youtu.be/lsI08y6jwaQ with better cookware.

[dghlsakjg]

“Confidently incorrect” indeed: https://youtu.be/sZQY0Pe7cf8

[geoduck14]

Oooooh. Now I want some Chicken Tiki Masala.

[ihateyouall123]

This whole thread is a bunch of losers who sit in front of computers trying to understand cooking through the science they learned in front of their computer.

Maybe try to cook first?

[throwaway2990]

If you’re talking about roti flatbread. It’s always cooked on a flat surface so gas/electric has 0 influence on it.

[ramraj07]

Roti Indian style is finished off on top of a direct flame. Pretty impossible to fully emulate it without gas.

[throwaway2990]

Never seen it finished off on an open flame in Singapore or Malaysia. No one does that. Roti prata is one of my favourite late night snacks. Atleast once a week I go down at 1am to buy it.

If we talk about say poppadoms. Doing that without an open flame produces… it produces something…

[ramraj07]

More people than the population of the US likely eat rotis prepared that way. Like this: https://youtu.be/lsI08y6jwaQ

All of north India eats rotis made this way as their staple.

[AustinDev]

Have you ever used induction? Electric induction is the best cooktop I've ever owned, and I was a staunch only gas person beforehand. Plus I can boil water on it faster than is possible in any gas stove @ 5kW (on the 'power' element). It can do a gallon of water in ~ 4 minutes from room temperature or a liter in about a minute it's pretty awesome.

[apnew]

I have; while your/everyone’s point in this thread is valid there are some food items that just cant be made same way on electric cooktops.

eg : https://www.alamy.com/preparingindian-rotifulkachapati-puffe...

I have lived with induction cooktop (in Europe) for 3 yrs and resistive cooktops (in US) for ~3yrs as well.

[jjj123]

The parent’s comment was also saying that gas stoves are essentially a forced choice on poor people who don’t have many options when looking for a place to rent.

Just because you theoretically have more choice in a free market doesn’t mean you actually do, depending on how desperate you are.

[apnew]

Well then the solution is to mandate a hood that cleans the said toxic gas/es out. And if we were being serious at all; there is always a habitability clause in the rental agreements which can be used to mandate the hoods where gas ranges exists. No new laws/regulations needed.

But those would be too good of solutions and spoil the current sneaky plan. Too many goal posts are shifting for justifying a performative-feel-good-climate fight (the point the top-level comment is trying to make).

There is no pure free-market anywhere (and it's a good thing). Let's not justify govt overreach in the garb of imperfect market-capitalism.

[alex_lav]

...isn't "but i like my food cooked on the other kind" just the same thing you're arguing against?

[apnew]

But I am not taking a position that govt bans the other side's fav style, am I now?

[alex_lav]

Should legislation include science and fact-less personal preference?

[apnew]

Where did I say that? I’m saying there is no need for restricting gas range installations via legislation.

If the goal is to fight health risks there’s way to mitigate those risks scientifically in other ways that allows people to keep their preferences. Just saying “science” in a sentence doesn’t make your point scientifically valid, we don’t need to turn science into religion.

[alex_lav]

But...replace gas range with seatbelts or smoking cigarettes indoors and you're repeating exactly the argument that was made while that legislation was happening. "We can't add legislation because I like the dangerous thing"

[apnew]

If I were to take your examples; range hood is the seatbelt; what this legislation is doing is telling driving “too unsafe; everyone must take train”.

Or too take cigarettes example; ban cigarette sales completely instead of banning smoking indoors.

I hope you see the nuance now.

[desmosxxx]

require them in rentals?