[aartav]

If you can be restored from simply doing a different task, then its not real burnout.

As someone who has undergone real burnout from burning the candle at both ends for to long, I wish it was this simple. Its sometimes called a mental or nervous breakdown, and the only real solution is to disconnect from everything you can (hard to disconnect from kids), and just try to get back to a stable place. For me that was living in a Costa Rica for 3 months with no TV and spotty slow internet. The only thing you can do is sit on the veranda and relax.

[kelseyfrog]

"Sorry, but that's not real burnout. If you're unable to recover at all then you've experienced real burnout."

I hope you see where this eventually leads, because it's a common pattern when discussing mental health topics. There is a single instance of the "true" thing and no one else feels justified in taking care of themselves because someone else has it worse. I'm sorry that you had burnout, but there are better ontologies of burnout than drawing the line around your experience as "real".

[johnfn]

I mean, if one guy is talking about a broken leg, and a second comes by and says "ah yeah, I scraped my knee once too, I had to use a band-aid in order to solve it," I think it's entirely valid to say that those are not comparable experiences. I feel that you are arguing they are different degrees of the same thing. That may be true, but it's true in such a thin sense that it doesn't really contribute to a conversation.

[kelseyfrog]

That's a great example that I agree with. Also consider the "You haven't had a real fracture unless there's bone sticking out of your skin." to the person who has a hairline.

What I'm saying is that it's especially easy to get caught up in this mindset when discussing mental health topics. The existence of "real" burnout artificially introduces the concept of "fake" burnout.

Let's be clear, the concept of burnout and worn out is more compassionate, descriptive, and most importantly has the important consequence that I'm interested in avoiding: not turning into a who has it worse spiral that ultimately ends in people with burnout not being able to identify it because someone else has it worse.

It's this class of false negative that I believe is important to have a conversation about. These people often go unnoticed, because despite having burnout will not identify it as such because someone has it worse.

I get that you're interested in the false positive case, and that's fair. I understand that if too many people misidentify worn out as burnout that it can make burnt out people feel like people aren't able to understand their circumstances as severe, but I trust you'll consider both types of error as important and deserving the attention they do.

[Eddy_Viscosity2]

Another way of saying this is that burnout exists on a spectrum and that catching it early when you're on the worn-out side is way better then waiting till its gets to the full burn out side.

[darkerside]

Well, in this case, the article author is talking about a sprained ankle, and top level poster is dismissing his experience because he broke his ankle once.

[blue039]

The article author is saying "I sprained my ankle and it was extremely painful to the point I could not do anything". You can ice an ankle (take a little time off) and have it fixed.

The parent is saying "I broke my ankle - fractured in several places I was crippled and needed surgery you did not experience a broken ankle". You cannot fix this problem by icing it. You need a systemic reduction in everything.

The author is conflating a sprained ankle with a broken one. The parent is saying that is not true. A lot of people who have sprained their ankles have come into this topic to tell everyone "WELL ACKTHUALLY" in the most obnoxiously stereotypical HN way possible thereby diluting the actual meaning of the parent's statement. There are far too many HNers who have a permanent craniorectal issue.

[darkerside]

Most disagreements really just boil down to what is the most important thing to be talking about. And I tend to side with the person who started the conversation because they had something to say.

> If you can be restored from simply doing a different task, then its not real burnout.

You're not wrong, it's just that you seem not to realize this statement was a "well actually", probably because you happen to agree with it.

[jemmyw]

I fractured my wrist last year and the doctor was debating if it was possibly a fracture that needed a an x-ray or a sprain. I said it wasn't that painful and he replied that a sprain can be more painful than a break so that's not really a good metric. Hopefully that dilutes things a little more for you.

[klyrs]

Technically speaking, a sprain can be worse than a break. Bones heal. Tendons don't.

[arrosenberg]

Nah, GP is right. There is feeling burned out on something specific and being well and truly burned out. The former can be shrugged off with tricks, the latter feels like being dead inside until you rest for long enough to reset.

[katscradle_1989]

honestly seems like it would work on a spectrum. I've been burned out. Not as bad as GP but where I've had to take a week off to find stability again. Everything except the timescales seem to line up.

I do get what GP is trying to say though. I just believe its all the same and "small burnout" can be fixed with small tricks.

[devinprater]

Is... Is that really what I have to do? But I have a job.

[justinator]

Yeah it's what you have to do. You were abused (by yourself) and you're going to have to admit that it's a problem, make very real steps to recover from it, and make sure that it never, ever happens again as you're now 1000x more susceptible to the ill effects that come from that sort of abuse.

[arrosenberg]

Pretty much! Save up, take 6-12 months off, you will feel way better.

[John23832]

"True Scottsman" with mental health is really annoying.

[aliqot]

Aren't you doing the same thing right now? They're gatekeeping burnout, and you're gatekeeping the definition of it.

[kelseyfrog]

Sorry, but I'm only willing to continue this conversation with a true Scotsmen.

[2-718-281-828]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

touché

[atoav]

No they are not. They are stating the fact that a given psychological definition (e.g. burnout) can include multiple different manifestations.

[blue039]

You are being needlessly sensitive to the parent post.

The parent is making a distinct difference between what the industry typically refers to as "burnout" and what actual, physical, burnout is. As someone who has gone through phases of burnout and currently working through yet another one in my career I can attest the parent's definition IS the correct one.

You are not burned out when you are bored at work. You are burned out when you are so tired of doing something that you cannot bring yourself to not only do it, but anything else. When you need drugs to get through the day. It's a combination of depression/anxiety/fear of failure that manifests as what I can only describe as a feeling of wanting to disconnect from everything forever and sleep. The only solution is to disconnect for a long time. I, for example, have not programmed as a hobby in almost half a decade. It's the only way I can stave off repeated bouts of severe life crippling burnout.

Be far less sensitive. Also, perhaps you should try to experience burnout before a needlessly pedantic out-of-nowhere virtue signal.

[kdmccormick]

> actual, physical burnout

As with all mental health issues, there is no clear line between "fake" and "actual, physical". It's a spectrum. Even small amounts of stress and boredom create physical responses.

I have Bipolar disorder and I will happily admit that anyone can suffer depression & mania symptoms, and that the difference between what they suffer and I suffer is one of magnitude and not one of categorical difference.

The article author sounded a little bit burned out. You were/are severely burned out. Is there something wrong with saying it like that?

Unrelated, read both of these statements and tell me you don't see irony:

> Be far less sensitive.

> Also, perhaps you should try to experience burnout before a needlessly pedantic out-of-nowhere virtue signal

[idopmstuff]

OP never made this claim. The title is "When feeling worn out, rotate", not "When feeling crippling, life-draining burnout, rotate". You shouldn't dismiss this just because it doesn't solve the worst possible case. The whole value of this suggestion is that it's something reasonably helpful that you can do in order to avoid ending up totally burned out.

And honestly if you're fully burned out, it's still helpful to have suggestions like this that might make things slightly better - most people aren't able to go to Costa Rica for three months and relax, so suggesting that's the only cure to burnout is just telling a lot of people that they're doomed forever because they can't take a tropical vacation.

[haswell]

I’m about 10 months into a burnout break, and I’m only just starting to feel like I have my feet back under me.

Burnout is very real and very different from the notion of “worn out” described in the piece. I started to realize this more deeply when I noticed that there was just about nothing that I could interest myself in, even the most tantalizing personal project ideas (some might note this sounds like depression, and I agree. I’ve dealt with varying levels of depression for most of my life, but burnout became a multiplying factor).

I think if more folks realized how different they are, they would take burnout more seriously and take more steps to avoid it.

I know I would have.

[tarokun-io]

My 2c: I realized (quite late in life) that when there's just about nothing that I can interest myself in, it's because I actually _need to do nothing_.

Doing nothing is healthy and is a great way to regain health.

(Feeling guilty about it or worrying about "what I should be doing" will prevent it from restoring us, though. It only works if we accept our health needs.)

[haswell]

This is a really good point, and one that can be hard to realize.

The constant need to go go go is so deeply ingrained in so many of us, that the first instinct is to conclude “there’s something wrong with me”.

Burnout seems to be the body/mind’s way of enforcing that downtime, so that’s definitely a critical lesson to take from all of this.

[gopalv]

> If you can be restored from simply doing a different task, then its not real burnout.

> the only real solution is to disconnect

So I was trying to deal with my dad's tragical slide into depression by convincing him that the monsters he's fighting aren't "real".

And he asked me a question bluntly one day (in my own native tongue, where it sounded heavier).

"What is real to you? Is what you experience real and what I experience not real?"

The problem with defining this sort of reality from a personal view point is that someone's biggest problem in their life so far might be the 100% on their scale.

It sure was in my case, my burn out was showing up in my weight (was 54kg at 6'2), while my dad ended up ending his life over work stress. And I still think my situation was worse than his, but just that I was still bouncy when I hit rock bottom.

So what someone shares as a real problem and a solution might work for them and a million others (because that's a 1 in an eight million shot), which makes it totally real for them.

Also If something works for you, sharing it doubles its effectiveness - socially and personally.

[parpfish]

It's the opposite for me. If disconnecting and taking a break provides relief, the problem was overwork/exhaustion/fatigue and not "burnout". Burnout is something deeper that and more closely related to depression, and no amount of time off will fix it if you just end up coming back to the same environment.

Strangely enough, the fix to burnout can be finding different/more engaging work to help overcome the cynicism and sense of hopelessness.

[bee_rider]

The post doesn’t actually mention burnout at all, it is just tagged with the word for some reason.

I don’t think I have seen “real burnout” as you call it. If it is so debilitating, I guess it must be pretty rare, or this would be causing a massive social and economic disturbance. It seems lots of people are feeling worn out nowadays, so this article seems like it could be useful.

[legrande]

> and the only real solution is to disconnect from everything you can

Yes. Offline is the new peace of mind. Trouble is, the mind needs something to work at/solve and it's forever trying to solve some puzzle. People regard reading as switching off, but reading, for me, is an active pursuit, rather than passive. I read to become a better version of myself, so yeah: the only real solution to burnout is literally to meditate in a cave sans smartphone or book.

[pitsnatch]

I think I’m falling into the trap of looking at my capacity only in terms of each day. Ie if I get a good night’s sleep I erroneously feel like I should be able to sustain my (probably unsustainable) momentum. When I try to relax, I feel like I’m wasting time if I do it for too long. Does anyone have any advice for this?

[haswell]

Start reframing the value proposition of relaxing.

In my mental model, I look at relaxation/disconnection like sleep.

You can behave as if it’s not important for awhile, but eventually it will catch up.

Personally, since I couldn’t see the burnout around the corner, I didn’t have the internal self talk to remind myself that relaxation is not just a waste of time.

I’m now working on baking this into my every day life by building habits around it. For me, that looks like:

- Mindfulness practice in the morning (using the “Waking Up” app, which has solidified the concepts for me in a way that no other app ever had)

- Regular walks in nature

- Cannabis + music listening sessions

But I can’t stress the value of mindfulness enough. For me it has become a tool to check in with myself more often and to really notice how things are going instead of just getting carried along by the currents of each day. And note this is not the same thing as some common forms of focus/concentration-based “clear your mind” meditation practices.

[the_snooze]

Shift your focus to reliability, not efficiency. It forces you to recognize when you've done enough, and it makes it OK to down-prioritize things to ensure you deliver on what's more important.

[tarokun-io]

I'm a lot like you in that sense. Here's what's working for me (still learning):

> I get a good night’s sleep I erroneously feel like I should be able to sustain my (probably unsustainable) momentum

Try to have patience.

When we see an improvement we get attached to it. This happens when losing weight, sleeping more, etc. Changing habits, even slightly, always takes time.

If, it seems to be evolving in the direction you desire in the long-term, you're good. Extrapolating from one or a few data points won't give good predictions.

> When I try to relax, I feel like I’m wasting time if I do it for too long.

Trust yourself.

Do you feel you're wasting time after a few hours, days, or months? If you relax enough, the need to do stuff usually comes back to you on its own. No need to force it via guilt or worry.

If you objectively can't relax as much as you'd like to, then remind yourself _why_ you're doing the things you do. You'll probably have great reasons to do so —making the most of some opportunity, doing it for your loved ones, whatever.

It could also be you needed to avoid relaxing some time in the past and now you have more space to relax but haven't re-analyzed your current situation properly and are not aware not-relaxing is not adequate strategy now, according to your desires and objectives.

[LesZedCB]

burnout is not a competition and this response suggests you may not have learned what you need to from your break....

you can get normal human levels of exhausted without going bonkers unhealthy woeking through it.

OP is a sustainable and healthy tactic

[haswell]

It’s not about competition - it’s about accuracy in communication and clarifying when the advice may or may not be helpful.

If someone is struggling with motivation one day, there are a number of “get motivated” tricks that may help.

If that person is struggling with motivation due to depression, and has been for awhile, that motivation advice is going to fall flat.

Burnout and being “worn out” or “fatigued” are often very different things, despite the fact that the latter two are symptoms of the former.

[parpfish]

i agree. i got my worst bout of burnout while at a very cushy job where i was chronically underworked. it took me forever to realize there was a problem because I had internalized the notion that burnout was another word for fatigue/exhaustion, when they're actually distinct phenomena

[ZephyrBlu]

It's not real burnout unless you're working in Burnoute region of France.

[danaris]

Well, that's all very well for those who can afford to vacation in Costa Rica for 3 months, but most of us have to actually earn money to survive, and have to work most days of the year to do so.

Of course, the conclusion this should lead to is that we have yet another very good reason why a modern healthy country should be providing Universal Basic Income.

[Existenceblinks]

I avoid the word 'burnout' now. Just expand a bit like 'have a long stress session and it broke mental health to a certain point that needs a fix'

Changing activities and habits is ok but paracetamol. The causes are still there.

[aantix]

You disconnected from your family as well while living in Costa Rica?

[aartav]

No, they were with me. Can't disconnect from everything.

[stkdump]

I guess you shouldn't let it come to burnout. This is probably a good measure to prevent burnout.

[hummus_bae]

Disconnecting doesn't work for everyone, and technology burnout is different from mental burnout.