[incognito_robot]

It is uncanny how much this mimics my own experience.

Was bullied between ages 11-16. Grew a a social circle in high school, which started fragmenting once everyone went off to university. I rarely if ever see any of them anymore.

Before the bullying, I was aparently happy and excited for most things (according to siblings). After it I have always been the low energy serious guy.

20 years on I feel an intense need for human connection, but no matter how much I try I never seem to be able to cultivate any kind of lasting relationship with others.

[com2kid]

> but no matter how much I try I never seem to be able to cultivate any kind of lasting relationship with others.

I used to run a startup focused on this, here is what I learned:

Time. The answer is time. Research shows there are two ways long term bonds are formed, shared adversity[1], or lots of time spent together. General rule of thumb for relationship building:

1. 10 hours together is someone you know 2. 100 hours together is a good acquittance. 3. 1000 hours together is a good friend and a relationship that can now last a long time

This is why activities such as football watching (3*18, 54 hours a year, 2 years and you now have the beginnings of a good friends circle), or weekly poker matches (2 hours, almost 100 hours in a year) are so effective at building relationships.

Interpersonal hobbies with lots of down time, like rock climbing or playing in a band, accelerate this process greatly.

For people with kids, weekly play dates, or a weekly rotated dinner hosting.

Friendship is literally grinding hours, when we are young it is easy, studying and hanging out get those hours in, but when we get older, we have to be purposeful about it.

[1] Military boot camps are an example of this, so are the various culture wars. If you make people feel they are part of an oppressed group, preferably while isolating them from society at large, you will forms a cohesive group that acts together and one where everyone feels connected to each other. "Both sides" of the political spectrum do this, once you learn to spot it you start seeing it everywhere.

[citilife]

I recommend people try to go to Church -- even if you're not exceptionally religious (you can even tell them that, I've never seen anyone mind; though they may try to convince you).

It's an easy place to meet 30-40 people in a day, everyone there has different interests and comes from different walks of life. If you attend for a few weeks you'll often start attending lunch together, meeting out at some activities, etc. Plus, all you have to do is show up. People at a church tend to be outgoing, at least some of them are. Someone is bound to reach out to you if you sit there and drink a coffee.

[PuppyTailWags]

I would offer some hesitations to offer Church without knowing too much about someone or without caveats. Lots of people have religious trauma from being sexually assaulted/abused by church members or religious leaders, being ostracized for being LGBTQ or even just not performing gender strongly enough, or from being autistic/ADHD/a weirdo. When religion is good, it's a great pin to community building and mutual aid. When religion is bad it's a nightmare.

[codemonkey-zeta]

Eh, just steer clear of hardcore churches and you'll be good. Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist are going to be too intense for a first-time churchgoer, but plenty of other Protestant churches are very liberal. Hell my Lutheran church in Massachusetts even had a gay minister. There are so many liberal protestant sects it will make your head spin, to the point that recommending someone try going to church these days (especially with all the polarizing, isolating events of the last decade) is probably solid advice if they're seeking community.

[smeej]

Ironically I spent a few years looking in all those places before ending up Catholic.

Everybody else "tolerated" the heck out of my gender-bewildered, 'spergie self from the messed up family, but it was the Catholics who finally showed me a love that would actually sacrifice something for my sake. Up until then, I sincerely believed "love" was like "Santa Claus" - a nice story you tell children, but nobody actually believes when they grow up.

Are there some Catholics who wouldn't know love if it came back from the dead? Absolutely. But there are others who stake their lives and well-being on the belief that love is at the center of everything, and wow are they worth meeting.

[galaxyLogic]

Love is great but it's even better if you can put it in action. Love without acting to try to help others, is that love really?

There are lots of suffering in the world caused by systemic factors. If you think all that matters is that God loves YOU and EVERYBODY then you will probably not spend much time thinking about the systemic causes of suffering, and how to alleviate them.

The thing about religion is it mostly advocates keeping the status quo as is. Religion doesn't demand that you use your brain does it? Whereas if you are serious about making the world a better place then you MUST use your brain.

I know, there is something called Liberation Theology:

https://www.religion-online.org/article/an-evangelical-theol...

"...central biblical doctrines is that God is on the side of the poor and the oppressed. Tragically, evangelical theology has largely ignored this doctrine"

[amanaplanacanal]

From what I can see Unitarians welcome all the weirdos (saying this as a weirdo myself). My local church has Zen meditation groups, Wiccan circles, and specifically LGBT hangouts.

[PuppyTailWags]

I agree there are plenty of liberal churches. I'm merely saying that "go to church" isn't without caveats. You have to have some consideration about ensuring they go to a church that won't make their mental health worse, or that the advice you're giving doesn't come off as totally bone-headed (suggesting church to someone who was raped by a minister is obviously cruel, for example).

[vagrantJin]

> ...being ostracized for being LGBT...sexual trauma...autism

Right...

[boppo1]

I have considered this, however I'm agnostic asymptotically approaching atheist. It's not really important to me and I don't care to talk about it, but I really wouldn't want to lie about it.

[freshpots]

I recommend volunteering with an organization you want to support or a group that does various things in your community. You'll find like minded people in no time that want to serve others. No faith needed.

[tempnow987]

This is not a bad suggestion. HN folks tend to be "anti" - I think that also is in part isolating. So many / most gatherings of folks don't meet the HN purity / behavior / etc standards (church groups / political groups etc).

As a note I went to church every sunday growing up - my parents (not religious) did it for exactly the reasons you described. Because we weren't religious there are some things that aren't a good fit even if its with other kids (confirmation meetings - I was very reasonably asked not to attend after asking questions because I was confused about the whole thing). There is a wide range of religious orthodoxy as well - plenty of mellower denominations.

[freshpots]

I recommend volunteering in your city/town with an organization unaffiliated with religion if you're not religious. It saves that awkward conversation and gets straight to the point of both meeting new people and finding a place where you can feel like you're helping others. Like the Lion's Club International.

[SpikeDad]

As long as you don't mind supporting evil organizations and being subject to continuous prostilitizing. I find it difficult to believe that someone who is depressed needs to hear that they're a sinner heading to hell unless they accept whatever precepts the particular church is pushing.

[ekam]

Not even a christian but painting all churches as "evil organizations" is super inflammatory and unfair

[iosystem]

Evil is subjective. Some people think churches are evil while others think the opposite.

[ekam]

Some churches have done evil things, others have immensely benefitted their community. Arguments that uniformly paint independent groups of people with a broad stroke of immorality are usually irrational because people aren't monoliths and don't behave a single way, especially churches which are operated in a decentralized and independent fashion (eg my small city has 50+ churches, all operated by separate groups). OP's comment is just as irrational as the people who say "all women are x, all minorities/white people are y, etc. The fact that some people may subscribe to these irrational beliefs is neither here nor there.

[citilife]

> As long as you don't mind supporting evil organizations and being subject to continuous prostilitizing.

lol really? Define evil. I view evil as anything that leads to disorder in the world (death, destruction, etc); churches do not do that - they often build people up, build in the community, etc.

> I find it difficult to believe that someone who is depressed needs to hear that they're a sinner heading to hell unless they accept whatever precepts the particular church is pushing.

I'm fairly certain 99% of them preach the opposite?

They'll say "here are all the bad things we do", "we are saved because we attempt to do good and believe in God [or if christian - Jesus sacrificed himself for all people, living and dead]"

Christians really preach self-reflection and atonement - aka be humble. Frankly, the world can use more of that.

[freehorse]

Friendships do involve a lot of time grinding, but is it just time the force that forms a friendship? Or what you see actually comes the other way around, meaning that people who "bond well" tend to spend more time together?

While indeed time is important, it does not mean that merely spending time with somebody creates a friendship between you. It is more the quality of the time than time itself and, sadly, often our lives do not make quality easy to find. Especially regarding "hobbies and interests", personally I have found that relationships formed just through them tend to be more superficial and lasting less than relationships which are formed in a multitude of contexts and circumstances rather than simply spending time on one interest. They are good ways to meet new people, but for me an analogue of watching football together 2 or 10 hours per week and not other common context has never really worked out.

I like the approach of this blog post bellow on this. I think that especially the part of sharing life struggles together to be quite important.

https://billmei.net/blog/friendship

[com2kid]

Quality time is important, for certain.

That blog's point to ask for help to create connections is a classic technique, super effective as well. Neighbors asking to borrow small things from each other is a great example of this bit of psychology in action.

[snthpy]

Your point about shared adversity is so interesting to me. I was on a "ferry" (it was really a kind of speedboat or something) from Belize to Honduras that got caught in a tropical storm. The waves were terrible, people vomiting everywhere, then the engine overheated and cut out, we had to search for life vests and eventually found some and put them on. They managed to revive the engine but the whole trip took 5 hours instead of two. It was a pretty frightening experience.

Anyway, even though I only spent a couple of hours with my fellow passengers on that boat, I felt more bonded to them than most people I met in almost a year backpacking and stayed in touch with them for a long time on Facebook.

So interesting that that's some kind of inbuilt thing. Like the OP, I also struggle making friends otherwise like which makes this more curious to me.

[takk309]

I can't agree more on the shared adversity. My three main hobbies are rock climbing, hockey, and cycling. With climbing you have to battle against yourself and your limits. Good partners will support you in those pursuits. Add in the fact that your life is literally in someone else's hands when they belay you, it is a quick path to trust. Add in the down time, as stated above, and you will make true friends. Going on a week long climbing trip with a small group will stack up quality hours fast.

Hockey is different but you still have a team working towards a goal, literally! With a good group of people, good as in nice people, not skilled, you win and lose as a team. Plus the on bench and locker room time means you get to know one another over time.

Cycling is different for me, it is a solo experience and as a result I don't have any friends in that world.

[geph2021]

   Cycling is different for me, it is a solo experience and as a result I don't have any friends in that world.

I guess it depends where you live, but usually there are cycling clubs or bike stores that have organized group rides. Riding with a group is an incredible way to enjoy longer rides while socializing, and it's safer.

I started cycling and was amazed at how social it was (albeit living in a town with a sizable cycling community). In my youth I was a swimmer, and although there is a lot of shared experience/adversity and friendship on any sports team, there's a lot less socializing that can be done while your head is underwater!

[takk309]

I choose to do it solo, for the most part. I enjoy the solitude. I have been mountain biking more and that has been more group rides.

[hirvi74]

> Plus the on bench and locker room time means you get to know one another over time.

It's so lonely being a goalie sometimes. We never get any bench chat except for the short intermissions.

[spaceman_2020]

Curious what your startup was. I feel this is one of the world’s biggest problems (chronic loneliness) that doesn’t get enough attention.

[com2kid]

Thawd, trying to melt the social freeze.

It was psychology applied to finding things to do, instead of meetup.com where you scrolled through a list of events and picked one weeks out from now, or a "friend making" site that had you swipe through faces, you instead selected from a list of events happening in the next 72 hours (immediacy). Personality matching[1], tuned for "will these people vibe", was used to arrange the groups. Groups were 4-6 people, small enough for real conversations to happen. You didn't get to see photos of people until you were at the event and ready to meet (avoiding the beauty contest problem).

Imagine a giant "I AM BORED, FIND ME SOMETHING TO DO RIGHT NOW" button. No endless scrolling, just a few choices, happening soon, presented to the user.

Investors weren't too pleased, two sided marketplace. Small businesses loved the idea, they only had to pay for people who actually showed up. Geo-fencing was used to track when people spent time at an event, basically a bill was only sent out if someone spent 30 minutes or so in the geo-fenced event area. (Phone privacy limitations and GPS throttling made that harder and harder).

Goal was to launch with local business partners at first and then migrate to letting individuals create events.

Stretch goal was to train an ML model up on creating a minimum viable set of questions to discover small groups that would vibe together, then license the ML model out to casinos, cruise ships, and such.

[1] test came from research in the EU, since American universities largely study friendships at work... ugh.

[spidersouris]

> Research shows...

Do you have any references in mind?

[com2kid]

When running my startup I did a deep dive into the psychology behind friendship and relationship building, but I haven't kept track of any of the references since then.

[jvm___]

Same. Insulting nicknames from elementary into highschool. Same 15 boys due to small classes at private Christian school.

Married the first girl who showed me positive attention. I didn't know what a friend for me was, so we're married but not friends.

The hope for you is that I found a group through a local running group. They posted on Facebook and we run weekly. They added me to the group chat last year and it's been amazing having people to chat with and go on runs with.

Going home to someone who you can't have a conversation with is hard though.

Trite advice that worked for me. Find a group of people who do the thing you like as a way to make friends. This group was started by someone just looking to not run alone in town.

I can picture in my head walking up to the running group meetup for the first time, it honestly feels like a new birth after being friendless from grade 7 til age 40+.

[ryanwaggoner]

I wasn’t bullied, but I was a homeschool kid who ended up at a private Christian school and then married the first girl who showed me any interest. We finally divorced after two decades of struggle. The entire 3-4 year period of my marriage finally collapsing under its own weight came with several beautiful bright spots: I went to therapy, I had several life-changing experiences with psychedelics, and I found a group of incredibly good friends in similar situations. It’s mindblowing the difference that a few good friends can make.

[jvm___]

1000%

Same experiences with psychedelics, haha.

[Traubenfuchs]

> It is uncanny how much this mimics my own experience.

A significant amount of people damaged exactly like that run around. It‘s nothing noteworthy nor exceptional. And there is no recognized cure for us.

My pet theory is that through either nature or nurture, we are permanently damaged individuals that won‘t ever experience what we perceive as the normal, healthy social life and mental states. Our brains are permanently altered to our detriment.

Connecting to your anecdote: I am 30 and my mom still mentions what a lively and happy child I was. I wish she wouldn‘t, because it hurts to hear about the potential I squandered, lost or had stolen.

[sammalloy]

> we are permanently damaged individuals that won‘t ever experience what we perceive as the normal, healthy social life and mental states. Our brains are permanently altered to our detriment.

Pretty much all of the available evidence says otherwise. Look into neuroplasticity, developing healthy habits, and exposing yourself to people and situations that are far different than your comfort zone. I’m not the same person I was 20 years ago, and I’m not the person I was ten years ago. If you’re not busy growing, you’re busy dying. Change is the one thing we can count on to improve ourselves. But you have to accept it and get on with it. There are some people out there who have great difficulty changing and growing. Best to confront that now rather than later. Challenge yourself every day, and at the end of a year you’ll look back and laugh at your old self who said they were permanently damaged. Everyone has their unique way of doing this. For me, it’s going to nature and immersing myself in it every day and trying to find the beauty in all things. Find your own way.

[imiric]

> I wish she wouldn‘t, because it hurts to hear about the potential I squandered, lost or had stolen.

I think this negative mentality doesn't help. The sooner you try to live life to the best of your abilities with the cards you've been dealt, the sooner you'll feel better about your present and future. We can't change the past, but we can choose to accept it and move on.

[ryanwaggoner]

There are no magic bullets, but the research on psychedelics and depression are encouraging.

[Traubenfuchs]

The only time I managed to acquire psylocobin was on an island where a big rave was happening. A hippie guy sold me magic mushroom pills. I was too scared to take it in this atmosphere and wanted to take the pills home. To leave the island, one had to walk through nipple-high water. The pills in my wallet melted away in the water.

Maybe some other day.

[bnjms]

If you are in the US mushroom spores can be found in head-shops and grown easily enough. If you have friends who smoke weed they will likely know someone who knows how to get mushrooms.

Raves are fun enough as it is. You made the right choice.

[theGnuMe]

People develop a set of psychological defense mechanisms to the bullying that work at the time but can be maladaptive later. Maybe you were bullied because the bullies found your happy excitement upsetting to their feelings and wanted you to feel the way they feel. This is not uncommon. I'm sorry that happened to you. But it sounds like you are finding the time to reflect on your past.

As for relationships, the "one simple trick" for human connection and relationships is that there is no trick, you have to continuously put the work in. It helps if you find activities that you want to do and make friends there. A lot of people find satisfaction in helping other people, so volunteering can be one way to meet new people.

You might face constant rejection at first but you are not unlovable. But if you are nice and kind to others and help others people will value that and think of you in the future.

At some point you will reach critical mass and things will get easier.

[likeabbas]

I believe we find it hard to keep relationships because we take criticism/rejection harder than others. My (former) friends would say that I have no trouble burning bridges with anyone. Any time I’ve found myself embarrassed or hurt by someone else, I’ve pushed them out of my life. This definitely comes from how I handled people in my formative years

[UncleOxidant]

Yep, because we have very negative associations with criticism. In addition to being bullied, we tended to move a lot when I was a kid. So it became easy to just leave and start over somewhere else - I think I even started to look forward to being able to start over. I remember as a kid playing with other kids and after a bit just disappearing and hearing them in the distance say "hey, where did he go?" - I'd often do this. Much later I came to realize that this was some kind of avoidance and that it wasn't the norm. I think that I expected even amicable play situations to eventually lead to being bullied and I think that's why I'd just ghost people.

[waboremo]

For me this was Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria, linked to ADHD but of course that itself has a lot of overlap with the anxiety/depression realm.

It's a pretty messed up condition to deal with, especially because even the mere perception of potentially being rejected can cause disproportionate reactions.

[msrenee]

I need to do some reading on that, but it seems superficially similar to the behavior of someone with borderline personality disorder. However, I think of borderline including becoming attached or infatuated with a new person abnormally quickly and then rejecting them just as fast. I'd be curious if there's some neurological overlap or if it's a different distortion of "normal" human behavior with a different cause. Or if those are one in the same.

[waboremo]

Late reply but ADHD and Borderline get mixed up a lot, especially in women. For a very long time the only people who would get the ADHD labels were extremely hyperactive boys.

More recently people after seeking specialists (not just general doctors) are getting diagnosed as ADHD (inattentive usually) and these meds are having positive impact whereas their previous diagnosis of borderline or bipolar weren't. Buzzfeed News did an article about it but I can't find the link.

This isn't to say ADHD and BPD can't co-exist! Their co-existence however would probably project itself in more extreme ways due to BPD being more consistent and overt in the display of instabilities and self-harm. BPD would sort of override a lot of ADHD symptoms due to not being extreme enough. Someone with ADHD might feel like their friends don't like them due to not replying to text messages, but will be fine if told otherwise. If the same happened to a BPD they would convince themselves that their friends are lying and deep down want to abandon them, and would likely take action in the form of either self-harm or being mean to those friends.

But you can see how there is a bit of overlap when it comes to self-image and how untreated ADHD that permeates can start looking a lot like BPD.

[PuppyTailWags]

I found out that part of the issue with creating lasting relationships with others is that it actually takes a lot of effort to maintain relationships. It's not like a dating game where if you have a good dialogue on day 1 and then another good dialogue on day 2 their disposition changes. It's much more nuanced and much more specific on individual-to-individual interactions over months or years. Remembering common events to talk about regularly, responding and being responded to, birthdays, holiday celebrations, mutual activities, organizing intimate setting (think "potluck at X's house") socialization, the list goes on and on about the wide variety of behaviors.

If you're struggling, I found graythorn's various assessment resources super helpful, as it systematizes aspects of relationship building that most people find intuitive. Things like "what level of friendship am I with this person" and "assessment on expressing needs and support" were helpful to me. Although these guides are specifically towards autistics, so keep that in mind when you try them.

[citboin]

Googling “ graythorn assessment resources” gives us nothing useful. Please post more detail.

[PuppyTailWags]

https://linktr.ee/Gray.Thorn

Contexts to the links is the tiktok account https://www.tiktok.com/@graythornian

[vbezhenar]

I'm in a similar situation. Best friends I've found are when I actively played WoW and attended raids. I didn't kept them though but that was nice time and probably I had best interactions at that time. I'm trying to replicate that time but WoW changed and its audience changed, I don't feel like I fit there anymore.

[zeroonetwothree]

Depression often develops in adolescence so I think we should be a bit skeptical with the 'correlation is not causation' going on with these examples.