[com2kid]

> but no matter how much I try I never seem to be able to cultivate any kind of lasting relationship with others.

I used to run a startup focused on this, here is what I learned:

Time. The answer is time. Research shows there are two ways long term bonds are formed, shared adversity[1], or lots of time spent together. General rule of thumb for relationship building:

1. 10 hours together is someone you know 2. 100 hours together is a good acquittance. 3. 1000 hours together is a good friend and a relationship that can now last a long time

This is why activities such as football watching (3*18, 54 hours a year, 2 years and you now have the beginnings of a good friends circle), or weekly poker matches (2 hours, almost 100 hours in a year) are so effective at building relationships.

Interpersonal hobbies with lots of down time, like rock climbing or playing in a band, accelerate this process greatly.

For people with kids, weekly play dates, or a weekly rotated dinner hosting.

Friendship is literally grinding hours, when we are young it is easy, studying and hanging out get those hours in, but when we get older, we have to be purposeful about it.

[1] Military boot camps are an example of this, so are the various culture wars. If you make people feel they are part of an oppressed group, preferably while isolating them from society at large, you will forms a cohesive group that acts together and one where everyone feels connected to each other. "Both sides" of the political spectrum do this, once you learn to spot it you start seeing it everywhere.

[citilife]

I recommend people try to go to Church -- even if you're not exceptionally religious (you can even tell them that, I've never seen anyone mind; though they may try to convince you).

It's an easy place to meet 30-40 people in a day, everyone there has different interests and comes from different walks of life. If you attend for a few weeks you'll often start attending lunch together, meeting out at some activities, etc. Plus, all you have to do is show up. People at a church tend to be outgoing, at least some of them are. Someone is bound to reach out to you if you sit there and drink a coffee.

[PuppyTailWags]

I would offer some hesitations to offer Church without knowing too much about someone or without caveats. Lots of people have religious trauma from being sexually assaulted/abused by church members or religious leaders, being ostracized for being LGBTQ or even just not performing gender strongly enough, or from being autistic/ADHD/a weirdo. When religion is good, it's a great pin to community building and mutual aid. When religion is bad it's a nightmare.

[codemonkey-zeta]

Eh, just steer clear of hardcore churches and you'll be good. Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist are going to be too intense for a first-time churchgoer, but plenty of other Protestant churches are very liberal. Hell my Lutheran church in Massachusetts even had a gay minister. There are so many liberal protestant sects it will make your head spin, to the point that recommending someone try going to church these days (especially with all the polarizing, isolating events of the last decade) is probably solid advice if they're seeking community.

[smeej]

Ironically I spent a few years looking in all those places before ending up Catholic.

Everybody else "tolerated" the heck out of my gender-bewildered, 'spergie self from the messed up family, but it was the Catholics who finally showed me a love that would actually sacrifice something for my sake. Up until then, I sincerely believed "love" was like "Santa Claus" - a nice story you tell children, but nobody actually believes when they grow up.

Are there some Catholics who wouldn't know love if it came back from the dead? Absolutely. But there are others who stake their lives and well-being on the belief that love is at the center of everything, and wow are they worth meeting.

[galaxyLogic]

Love is great but it's even better if you can put it in action. Love without acting to try to help others, is that love really?

There are lots of suffering in the world caused by systemic factors. If you think all that matters is that God loves YOU and EVERYBODY then you will probably not spend much time thinking about the systemic causes of suffering, and how to alleviate them.

The thing about religion is it mostly advocates keeping the status quo as is. Religion doesn't demand that you use your brain does it? Whereas if you are serious about making the world a better place then you MUST use your brain.

I know, there is something called Liberation Theology:

https://www.religion-online.org/article/an-evangelical-theol...

"...central biblical doctrines is that God is on the side of the poor and the oppressed. Tragically, evangelical theology has largely ignored this doctrine"

[amanaplanacanal]

From what I can see Unitarians welcome all the weirdos (saying this as a weirdo myself). My local church has Zen meditation groups, Wiccan circles, and specifically LGBT hangouts.

[PuppyTailWags]

I agree there are plenty of liberal churches. I'm merely saying that "go to church" isn't without caveats. You have to have some consideration about ensuring they go to a church that won't make their mental health worse, or that the advice you're giving doesn't come off as totally bone-headed (suggesting church to someone who was raped by a minister is obviously cruel, for example).

[vagrantJin]

> ...being ostracized for being LGBT...sexual trauma...autism

Right...

[boppo1]

I have considered this, however I'm agnostic asymptotically approaching atheist. It's not really important to me and I don't care to talk about it, but I really wouldn't want to lie about it.

[freshpots]

I recommend volunteering with an organization you want to support or a group that does various things in your community. You'll find like minded people in no time that want to serve others. No faith needed.

[tempnow987]

This is not a bad suggestion. HN folks tend to be "anti" - I think that also is in part isolating. So many / most gatherings of folks don't meet the HN purity / behavior / etc standards (church groups / political groups etc).

As a note I went to church every sunday growing up - my parents (not religious) did it for exactly the reasons you described. Because we weren't religious there are some things that aren't a good fit even if its with other kids (confirmation meetings - I was very reasonably asked not to attend after asking questions because I was confused about the whole thing). There is a wide range of religious orthodoxy as well - plenty of mellower denominations.

[freshpots]

I recommend volunteering in your city/town with an organization unaffiliated with religion if you're not religious. It saves that awkward conversation and gets straight to the point of both meeting new people and finding a place where you can feel like you're helping others. Like the Lion's Club International.

[SpikeDad]

As long as you don't mind supporting evil organizations and being subject to continuous prostilitizing. I find it difficult to believe that someone who is depressed needs to hear that they're a sinner heading to hell unless they accept whatever precepts the particular church is pushing.

[ekam]

Not even a christian but painting all churches as "evil organizations" is super inflammatory and unfair

[iosystem]

Evil is subjective. Some people think churches are evil while others think the opposite.

[ekam]

Some churches have done evil things, others have immensely benefitted their community. Arguments that uniformly paint independent groups of people with a broad stroke of immorality are usually irrational because people aren't monoliths and don't behave a single way, especially churches which are operated in a decentralized and independent fashion (eg my small city has 50+ churches, all operated by separate groups). OP's comment is just as irrational as the people who say "all women are x, all minorities/white people are y, etc. The fact that some people may subscribe to these irrational beliefs is neither here nor there.

[freshpots]

Irrational is one who believes in things without evidence, aka faith.

[citilife]

> As long as you don't mind supporting evil organizations and being subject to continuous prostilitizing.

lol really? Define evil. I view evil as anything that leads to disorder in the world (death, destruction, etc); churches do not do that - they often build people up, build in the community, etc.

> I find it difficult to believe that someone who is depressed needs to hear that they're a sinner heading to hell unless they accept whatever precepts the particular church is pushing.

I'm fairly certain 99% of them preach the opposite?

They'll say "here are all the bad things we do", "we are saved because we attempt to do good and believe in God [or if christian - Jesus sacrificed himself for all people, living and dead]"

Christians really preach self-reflection and atonement - aka be humble. Frankly, the world can use more of that.

[freehorse]

Friendships do involve a lot of time grinding, but is it just time the force that forms a friendship? Or what you see actually comes the other way around, meaning that people who "bond well" tend to spend more time together?

While indeed time is important, it does not mean that merely spending time with somebody creates a friendship between you. It is more the quality of the time than time itself and, sadly, often our lives do not make quality easy to find. Especially regarding "hobbies and interests", personally I have found that relationships formed just through them tend to be more superficial and lasting less than relationships which are formed in a multitude of contexts and circumstances rather than simply spending time on one interest. They are good ways to meet new people, but for me an analogue of watching football together 2 or 10 hours per week and not other common context has never really worked out.

I like the approach of this blog post bellow on this. I think that especially the part of sharing life struggles together to be quite important.

https://billmei.net/blog/friendship

[com2kid]

Quality time is important, for certain.

That blog's point to ask for help to create connections is a classic technique, super effective as well. Neighbors asking to borrow small things from each other is a great example of this bit of psychology in action.

[snthpy]

Your point about shared adversity is so interesting to me. I was on a "ferry" (it was really a kind of speedboat or something) from Belize to Honduras that got caught in a tropical storm. The waves were terrible, people vomiting everywhere, then the engine overheated and cut out, we had to search for life vests and eventually found some and put them on. They managed to revive the engine but the whole trip took 5 hours instead of two. It was a pretty frightening experience.

Anyway, even though I only spent a couple of hours with my fellow passengers on that boat, I felt more bonded to them than most people I met in almost a year backpacking and stayed in touch with them for a long time on Facebook.

So interesting that that's some kind of inbuilt thing. Like the OP, I also struggle making friends otherwise like which makes this more curious to me.

[takk309]

I can't agree more on the shared adversity. My three main hobbies are rock climbing, hockey, and cycling. With climbing you have to battle against yourself and your limits. Good partners will support you in those pursuits. Add in the fact that your life is literally in someone else's hands when they belay you, it is a quick path to trust. Add in the down time, as stated above, and you will make true friends. Going on a week long climbing trip with a small group will stack up quality hours fast.

Hockey is different but you still have a team working towards a goal, literally! With a good group of people, good as in nice people, not skilled, you win and lose as a team. Plus the on bench and locker room time means you get to know one another over time.

Cycling is different for me, it is a solo experience and as a result I don't have any friends in that world.

[geph2021]

   Cycling is different for me, it is a solo experience and as a result I don't have any friends in that world.

I guess it depends where you live, but usually there are cycling clubs or bike stores that have organized group rides. Riding with a group is an incredible way to enjoy longer rides while socializing, and it's safer.

I started cycling and was amazed at how social it was (albeit living in a town with a sizable cycling community). In my youth I was a swimmer, and although there is a lot of shared experience/adversity and friendship on any sports team, there's a lot less socializing that can be done while your head is underwater!

[takk309]

I choose to do it solo, for the most part. I enjoy the solitude. I have been mountain biking more and that has been more group rides.

[hirvi74]

> Plus the on bench and locker room time means you get to know one another over time.

It's so lonely being a goalie sometimes. We never get any bench chat except for the short intermissions.

[spaceman_2020]

Curious what your startup was. I feel this is one of the world’s biggest problems (chronic loneliness) that doesn’t get enough attention.

[com2kid]

Thawd, trying to melt the social freeze.

It was psychology applied to finding things to do, instead of meetup.com where you scrolled through a list of events and picked one weeks out from now, or a "friend making" site that had you swipe through faces, you instead selected from a list of events happening in the next 72 hours (immediacy). Personality matching[1], tuned for "will these people vibe", was used to arrange the groups. Groups were 4-6 people, small enough for real conversations to happen. You didn't get to see photos of people until you were at the event and ready to meet (avoiding the beauty contest problem).

Imagine a giant "I AM BORED, FIND ME SOMETHING TO DO RIGHT NOW" button. No endless scrolling, just a few choices, happening soon, presented to the user.

Investors weren't too pleased, two sided marketplace. Small businesses loved the idea, they only had to pay for people who actually showed up. Geo-fencing was used to track when people spent time at an event, basically a bill was only sent out if someone spent 30 minutes or so in the geo-fenced event area. (Phone privacy limitations and GPS throttling made that harder and harder).

Goal was to launch with local business partners at first and then migrate to letting individuals create events.

Stretch goal was to train an ML model up on creating a minimum viable set of questions to discover small groups that would vibe together, then license the ML model out to casinos, cruise ships, and such.

[1] test came from research in the EU, since American universities largely study friendships at work... ugh.

[spidersouris]

> Research shows...

Do you have any references in mind?

[com2kid]

When running my startup I did a deep dive into the psychology behind friendship and relationship building, but I haven't kept track of any of the references since then.