[localghost3000]

I’m impressed by the beauty of this site and sophistication of the UI. However I _hate_ this type of messaging that does nothing for you except make your mental health worse. I don’t want to think about how many weeks of life I have left! Inducing existential dread is NOT what any of us need to start living our lives more fully (which I assume is the intent of this site). You wanna zone out on YouTube? Go for it. That’s just as valid as staying up all night to watch a sunrise. As with all things, moderation.

[PheonixPharts]

> Inducing existential dread is NOT what any of us need to start living our lives more fully

I’ve found, as I watch friends and family age, that learning to confront and work with this dread is essential to living life fully. Especially as decline and decay start to dominate aspects of your life more and more.

The people that I know that are uncomfortable talking about these topics progressively live in a world of fear and doubt as they age. The others, become increasingly resilient.

Arguably the single act that defines maturity is facing this dread and learning to accept and exist with it.

Until then you are living a half life, only dealing with the part of existence you find comfortable, but so much of who we are as individuals is defined by this other aspect of being.

[ericmcer]

So how do you accept it? I know a handful of 75+ year old family members who I am close to and they don’t think about it at all. The ones who act like they are still young and don’t dwell on death seem the happiest. It runs counter to the argument that death is something you need to meditate on and acknowledge every day.

Maybe there is something to just living in denial until your quality of life has degraded and your friends are gone and death seems a welcome release.

[waboremo]

Acting young does not exclude thinking about death. Being able to focus on other things most of the time also doesn't exclude thinking about death. I find it difficult to believe your family members do not think about death, even if you try your hardest to avoid it, people die around you and you are forced to face reality.

Accepting death will happen is a prerequisite. So many are afraid of this event, but it is just another event. What can you do about death? Nothing. So it's pointless to worry about the impending event of death. For some control freaks, this sends them into an internal spiral, and to them I say maybe reassess whatever trauma caused them to seek control over the uncontrollable. For others, this is freeing. It happens when it happens so all I can do is act on the now.

This is where I think most elderly people are at, and why they feel liberated. They aren't concerned about a legacy or preventing death or reputation, they care about the here and now. Loving who they love, working on what they enjoy, saying what's on their mind, and letting go of the rest.

Some people mistake this liberation to be a complete disregard for planning or the future. But on the contrary, if an elderly person sees high value in a higher education for their grandchildren for instance, they might seek to make contributions. They are acting in the now for their own benefit, understanding whatever happens when they are gone is uncontrollable anyway.

Do you need to pray to the god of death every day? No, but it's helpful to frame your perspective knowing death is going to happen. Especially when doing so helps fuel better decisions. Why worry about your social perception by joining a painting class? Why not go for a nice hike today? Our problems see minute when we acknowledge death is around the corner.

[avgcorrection]

That would be nice if we were taught any concrete ways to do that. But we aren’t. “Confront”? What does that even mean?

The Dalai Lama allegedly meditates on dying every day. With the whole decay visualization business.

[WhiteBlueSkies]

There is no decay and decline. Thinking that decay and decline is coming is the decay happening right now. This mentality needs to change ASAP.

[itsallinyahead]

If you let the bad emotions and feelings do their business, instead of constantly trying to escape from them, you wouldn't be feeling this way.

You, and many others in this modern world, remind of Dostoyevskian characters: neurotic, overly-emotional, busy buzzing around, the cause of all their own problems. No one can sit still in silence, alone with themselves -- they're always running away. There's always some emotion taking hold of them, and can't simply let it run its course. No, "something must be done!"

It reminds me of the Russian "martial art" система: the more you "hold on," the more pain you will feel, and less effective your moves will be. Somehow, people have never learned to let go, and become completely relaxed. They're constantly holding onto something, and being thrashed around by life.

Perhaps you people need to try ayahuasca? Or maybe meditation? Maybe drink less coffee? Maybe stop forcing yourself to do all of this stuff you really don't want to do? Take a break? Become mindful of your body, mind, and soul?

I have 2,000 weeks left. My life will not be lived "fully" to the standards of some over-socialized urbanite. That is fine. I have things I want to do. I don't care about anyone's opinion on them. Knowing I have lived half of my life already doesn't stir any emotions in me. There is no existential dread.

There is no "start" to living a life. You're living one already. If there are things that stir emotions in you, let them. Never exploring your feelings, leading to the emotional depth of a middle schooler, is one way to not live a "full" life -- not some inanity about "spending" your time "better" (to reduce life to some abstraction is only for the soulless).

[cpsns]

> Perhaps you people need to try ayahuasca?

I seriously wish people on HN and more broadly would stop suggesting drugs and tripping out so often as a solution to any depression or existential dread.

I get it's one of several suggestions you made, but it's the most dangerous suggestion of all of them. People end up seriously harmed by this stuff, it's not to be taken lightly.

[localghost3000]

Ugh. Yeah I was annoyed at that one. For one, I've been sober for about 10 years. Taking some mind altering substances would probably result in me waking up in a hotel room in TJ 2 weeks later. :)

[avgcorrection]

It’s adorable that you made an account to scold some random person for how their inner life works, as if you could glean that from a one-paragraph comment.

But as we all know: those who scold random people are the great teachers-by-example.

[localghost3000]

You've made a fresh HN account and made a lot of broad character assessments about me from a single comment. I am happy with where I am in life and what I've done with it. I just had a critique about the website having unintentional side effects. I've read 4k weeks and actually like that book. Perhaps instead of lecturing strangers on the internet with your enlightened views, you take a second to meditate and access some humility? Kind of annoying when someone suggests that isn't it?

[smallnix]

Or consider this, a person that manages to take out a loan and then dies before repaying can cheat the bank.

[ehecatl42]

It has crossed my mind to take such a loan, spend it on waygu and Château Lafite and that euthanasia place (Dignitas?) in Switzerland. Cheat the bank and the pain of dying. But then again, I am curious to see how things turn out, and that I won't know until my computation is complete.

[Dalewyn]

Not necessarily; any guarantors and/or successors will have to deal with that outstanding debt.

[FearlessNebula]

Tbh I don’t think you understood the goal of this post. The idea, to me, is to remind the reader of how precious life is, and to be mindful of how you’re spending it. Whether you think about it or try to ignore it, time is ticking by at the same speed. I’m only 25 but I’ve wasted way too much time on Reddit, YouTube, and even HN, in my opinion.

> As with all things, moderation.

Sure, but in my anecdotal experience the vast majority of people are spending more time on YouTube than what their own values would permit. And also anecdotally, people who experience more existential dread seem to be those who realize they aren’t living their life quite the way they’d like to.

[localghost3000]

I’m 45. Wife. Kid. The works. Painfully aware of how precious life is. 20 years ago when I was your age (which btw feels like only a few years ago…) this type of content resonated a lot more with me. I assume it was because the concept of aging was still pretty abstract. Now I’m in the shit so to speak.

My point is that I’ve seen a million of these. Hell I’ve read 4K weeks! You’ll get no argument from me that spending your time wisely is important but try to keep in mind that making the most of Every Second Of The Day is a sure way to make yourself miserable. I should know. I’ve done it. So, the intent of this page might be to inspire, but for a lot of folks it will trigger unnecessary existential panic.

I guess just try to remember the very wise advice from LOTR: “not all who wander are lost.”

[tayo42]

> spending your time wisely is important but try to keep in mind that making the most of Every Second Of The Day is a sure way to make yourself miserable.

That was the whole point of the book though? Stop trying to make the most of every second and do what you think is important.

[localghost3000]

I'm not critiquing the book. I am critiquing the site.

[skytrue]

It’s great you read 4000 Weeks, but as others have mentioned, I’m not sure you gathered the major takeaways. 4000 Weeks is about embracing finitude and accepting that you can’t do everything. The notion is freeing, because once you acknowledge you are finite, you can then make conscious decisions about how you want to spend your time. The intent of the book is to encourage people to choose time wisely, not “fill every day”. It very much has a quality over quantity kind of message. As an ADHD sufferer/chronic procrastinator/perfectionist type, I found it incredibly helpful and freeing to acknowledge that you will never be able to create everything to an unrealistic perfect standard, so instead focus on the things that matter the most to you.

[localghost3000]

> It’s great you read 4000 Weeks, but as others have mentioned, I’m not sure you gathered the major takeaways.

I've commented this many times but I'll say it here again: I am not critiquing the book. I understand its message fine. I am critiquing the site.

[bentcorner]

I'm in the exact same phase of life as you. Same age, mortgage, kids, wife, etc.

Recently I've been feeling distracted at work and unable to commit anything to completion, especially since I've been WFH since you-know-when. It's been a blessing to not have a commute but at the same time demands more of my concentration. At the same time, I have a hard time saying no at work. Throughout the day I tend to flit between tasks, along with starting/stopping work altogether as my mind wanders.

I like the message this article brings. One thing I definitely don't do is think about things I've completed.

I've talked to a counselor about this. They've gotten me to think about being more graceful to myself about my concentration and my work. I don't know if I'm there yet but we'll see.

[didgetmaster]

I don't know if it really matters if you are 20, 40, or 80; we can get caught up in certain traps no matter what our age is. Experience is definitely something we should be able to tap into later in life, but we can be stressed and feeling like we need to do much more than we are capable of even when we are 'old'.

I have a little startup and I keep a 'TODO' list of features to implement, bugs to fix, things to test, documentation to write, etc.. I could stress out because the list never seems to get any shorter. Every time I cross one thing off the list, I think of two more to add. Instead, I try to focus on what I can accomplish that day (or that week) and stop when I have spent a certain amount of time on it.

If I am in an ambitious mood, I might speed many hours tackling a single issue. Other times, I can go a whole week without ever opening up the IDE. That is OK! I have the luxury of not depending on the startup for financial survival. I also realize some others do not share this freedom so I don't criticize them if they feel stress and overwork on their project. I just work at my own pace and try to gain satisfaction on what I am able to accomplish.

I try to apply this technique to other areas of my life as well.

[FearlessNebula]

That’s a good point. Whenever I’ve felt existential dread it’s been soothing to know I can improve myself and live life in a better way. However if you’re already in what you consider to be an ideal state, you don’t have any wiggle room. And with a wife and kids on top, you have others who depend on you and also your own attachment to those people, which makes it all the more difficult to acknowledge that life is finite. All of the above which I haven’t experienced for myself.

[localghost3000]

"Ideal" is pretty far from what I would call my state :) I will however say that I wouldn't go back to any earlier point in my life given the choice. The only thing that I _truly_ miss is the 6 pack abs and being functional on 2 hours sleep.

[ofcourseyoudo]

very strange that you've read "Four Thousand Weeks" but associate it with "making the most of Every Second Of The Day" which is the precise opposite of its philosophy

[localghost3000]

Re-read my comment dude. I'm critiquing the site. Not the book.

[ofcourseyoudo]

The site literally says "Practice Doing Nothing."

[localghost3000]

And has a counter for how many weeks of life you have left.

[nativecoinc]

> I’m 45. Wife. Kid. The works.

Should someone who is 45 years of age who has none of those things perhaps visit that website?

[localghost3000]

I guess that depends. Do you want those things and feel like time is running out to get them? If so, maybe not the best for your mental health.

[avgcorrection]

Tbh I’m sick of these supposedly well-intentioned “reminders” to be better, to not “waste time”, and so on: for most people they demonstrably don’t work, as evidenced by the fact that out of one thousand people that know it applies to them, only a handful will do something about it. While the rest will verbally acknowledge it, will fret about it in their minds, and yet will do nothing about it.

If one individual fails to change, that’s their problem: if a method of change doesn’t work for the vast majority of people, then the problem is with the method.

Just my pet theory here but I don’t think that most people can just get off reddit because they have only X weeks left; can lose weight because they know they are eight kilograms overweight; can start exercising because someone told them something bad will happen to them in twenty years if they don’t; can start socializing because someone told them that in studies XYZ, people who are lonely are 90% more likely die of pancreatic cancer… it’s all completely backwards.

Because you know what makes people do anything? A purpose, goal, or meaning. By trying to “get the most out of my remaining 2800 weeks” like some little optimizing robot, you’re trying to improve “in life” (who wants to be a loser in life right) by doing the equivalent of maintaining your garden by removing all the weeds with a tweezer; already having some kind of purpose is what compels people to lose weight and to focus their time, because they might need that time to fulfill their purpose, they might need to lose weight in order to be fit enough to do what they need to do, and so on.

I also notice that having a purpose has a large impact on getting through the day. Because then everything I do, I do in support of that purpose. But when I lack a purpose? Then most things are mundane, robotic, tedious checklists. Things I do in order to avoid things like maybe possibly getting pancreatic cancer in thirty years time.

[carabiner]

It's one of those self-help contradictions: View life as both abundant and scarce at the same time.

Another is: love yourself, but avoid narcissism.

[_hzw]

And here's a Buddhism quote for the rescue:

> Someone came to him [Ajahn Chaa] complaining of all the conflicting advice he gave to his students. Sometimes he would suggest one thing and then later just the opposite. Ajahn Chaa replied, “It’s like this. If I see someone walking down a road and about to fall off into a ditch on the left, I’ll shout, ‘Go right.’ Later, if the same person, or someone else, is walking on the road and about to fall into a ditch on the right, I’ll say, ‘Go left, go left.’ It’s always about staying on the path.”

from Joseph Goldstein, _Mindfulness_ (2013)

[zw7]

I don't really think it's a contradiction. I think the idea, rather, is to focus on expanding the depth of your life (abundance), knowing you have little control over the length of it (scarce).

[agumonkey]

Ironically, free broadband internet is one of the saddest time accelerator I've ever experienced. Way worse than work.

[joshcanhelp]

I feel your feels here and whole-heartedly agree that the “life is short” trope is unhelpful. But the book that this site was based on is not that. In fact, I would say that the week count that the site give you is antithetical to the book’s message.

I regard 4000 Weeks as one of, if not the, most important books I’ve ever read. The message might not be important for everyone but it changed my perspective in several important ways.

[localghost3000]

I've read it. You're right that it's not an existential panic machine. I don't know that it resonated with me as much as it has with you but it's a good read.

[minaguib]

Interesting opinion.

I was mentioning the 4000 weeks idea to a friend and how I found it interesting and thought-provoking, and their reaction was quite the opposite as it was way too dark for them.

I wonder if this idea highlights some fairly clear differences in people's personalities and mental models (at least, at the time and place in their life they're evaluating it).

[mulderc]

I deeply disliked the book not because I found it dark but instead obvious and the writer plays out the implications that we have limited time in our lives in very strange ways such as arguing against using NFC to pay for things.

If you have taken an intro philosophy class or even watched some videos on YouTube you will have already seen these ideas.

A much better use of someone’s limited time would be to just read an intro to Buddhism or existentialism. You will get the same basic concepts and much better ideas on how you can address these issues in your life.

[GavinMcG]

Who said anything about existential dread? Perhaps the fact that dread is your reaction speaks more to your relationship with mortality than to the site’s approach.

[localghost3000]

I mean that’s pretty much what I said. I suspect it’s not just me as well.

[GavinMcG]

Fair enough. I guess I read your statement as universalizing that feeling. That is, when you said "this type of messaging ... does nothing for you except make your mental health worse" it didn't seem like a statement about your reaction; it seemed like a criticism of the site.

It probably isn't just you, but on the other hand, if we were to agree that existential dread is a less desirable reaction than some others (and it might not be!) there doesn't seem to me to be an obvious way to develop those more desirable reactions through methods other than exposure therapy via these sorts of sites.

[kirso]

The thing is, it can be both stress and revelation depending on how you look at it. Part of 4000 weeks is a chapter that is called "Cosmic insignificance therapy" which goes along the lines of nothing we do really matters in a grand scheme of things.

Again, depending on how you see it - it can be both shackling but also liberating.

The both of extremes of:

- I want to put my head in the sand and ignore the reality (we are mortal)

- YOLO

are not exactly ideal. As you said yourself => balance.

[twelve40]

now I really don't want to read it, sounds pretty depressing : (

[kirso]

That's the point :) It is not.

We are mortal, that's just a fact of life. I do agree with the comment OP though that both: - Maximising every day is bad - Ignoring life is bad

In the end its all about balance and content as the top voted comment goes.

I would still recommend the book to everyone!

EDIT: Also as one of the comments notes here:

"If you don't feel some existential dread at some point it's because you aren't being honest with yourself"

[idiotsecant]

If you don't feel some existential dread at some point it's because you aren't being honest with yourself, which is a prerequisite to moving past that dread. IMO reminding people that they are mortal and that they should find a way to deal with that is a public service. So many of the strange things we do are because we're afraid to confront the reality that we too, some day, will die.

[localghost3000]

I dunno. I think you are over generalizing TBH. For some it might be a public service. For others it might damage their mental health. It's highly contextual to where you are in life.

[mateo-]

I think it's more of the stoic "memento mori" intention. Make sure your time is well spent.

[localghost3000]

I understand the message. I get that it’s coming from a good place too. I’m just saying that stuff like this can make people feel bad about themselves unintentionally.

[nine_k]

I'd say sometimes people may need to feel bad about themselves in order to improve. And this feeling may be triggered unintentionally, too; there's no way around it sometimes. Feeling the pain sucks though.

[localghost3000]

We disagree. Being ready to make a change and being kind to yourself are not mutually exclusive ideas.

[dnissley]

Are you implying that feeling bad = being unkind to yourself?

[localghost3000]

I don’t anything is as binary as that no. I do think that there’s a difference between being ready for a change and beating yourself up about your shortcomings.

[ip26]

But what counts as well spent? That’s always my biggest stumbling block with this topic.

[yulaow]

I believe every single person must define that for themselves, and should be a definition specific for a short timeframe, it is useless to think about an "end-goal-well-spent" time because your opinion about what is well spent is gonna change of course

For example, for me right now an example of "time well spent" is playing with my elder cat. I try to reduce the time dedicated to every other thing today just to be able to get more of this

[ip26]

It sounds good, but I’ve been trying to figure it out myself for years… easier said than done.

[layer8]

Had the opposite reaction. The advice is valuable, but I didn’t care much about the presentation. The purpose also isn’t to give you existential dread, but to pull you out of the daily productivity routine blinders so that you can see the broader bird’s eye view perspective.

[localghost3000]

I've said this in a few other comments but I'll just repeat here that I am not accusing the author of the site of trying to make people feel bad about themselves. The intent is clearly to inspire. I just think that for a certain cohort of people it will hurt more than it helps.

[eyelidlessness]

Not reacting to your comment, nor to any particular of the replies, but the general direction of the conversation below: I get the impression this is a lightning rod for misunderstanding, and lots of loaded assumptions around what participants in the conversation value and about the values they find disagreeable.

But a common thread I’ve seen is that being adaptable to what you need and helps you thrive is better than setting arbitrary impossible expectations. That seems totally healthy to me regardless of some finer points I might dispute in individual comments. I hope there’s a chance this discussion will reach a point with less talking past each other, because there’s an awful lot that seems to be held in common.

[crucialfelix]

As soon as it asked my birth date I knew it would estimate my death date and I closed the tab.

[Tepix]

So you're avoiding thinking about how much time you have left?

[cpsns]

Why not? That sort of thing isn't helpful or thought provoking for many of us. On the other hand many will find it thought provoking in extremely negative ways.

Most people do not like to think about their impending doom on this hellish planet.

[jraby3]

I really love the advice at the end, and it’s not difficult to listen to.

Be curious about other people. Act immediately on a generous impulse. Live with intensity and focus.

Having directly actionable advice is extremely helpful, even as a reminder.

And I agree with you the site is extremely well done.

[komali2]

> You wanna zone out on YouTube? Go for it. That’s just as valid as staying up all night to watch a sunrise.

People should spend their time how they please but I strongly feel that feeding The Algorithm directly into your brain for hours is objectively less mentally healthy than staring at a sunrise, even if the sunrise is mind numbingly boring.

[localghost3000]

And vegetables are better for you than a candy bar. You should try to have more of the former than the latter but treating yourself to some junk food here and there is a good thing.

[Ozzie_osman]

"Live everyday as your last; plan everyday as if you will live forever."

I try to hold both ideas in my head at the same time.

[avgcorrection]

Couldn’t agree more.

Maybe this website would serve some purpose if we weren’t constantly being reminded of getting older, weaker, not having much time left, maybe you will get Alzheimers if you don’t do this One Weird Trick, etc. But as it stands we are reminded plenty of how short our lives are.

[antman]

Regarding the sophisticated ui, how do you change the year?

[ojbyrne]

There’s an arrow right next to January 2023 in the date selector.

[localghost3000]

Heh. Aside from that.

[bambax]

TFA is a little pompous and purports to give advice nobody asked for. The date selector at the beginning uses the super weird American format of month/day/year that nobody else uses. And, to the best of my knowledge, there is no "Charles Eisenstien", but a Charles Eisenstein (author of the first quote in the long, interminable scroll).

I'm not so sure life is short; but spending it reading self-help books and unsolicited advice is one sure way to waste time.