[magila]

I suffered from chronic diarrhea for years which I attributed to Crohn's disease. This seemed obvious since diarrhea is a very common symptom of Crohn's, but its onset had been several years after I was diagnosed and prior to that I had tended more towards the opposite problem (constipation). I was thus always suspicious that the root cause lay elsewhere. After much experimenting I found that if I ran my dishwasher through an extra rinse cycle the diarrhea went away.

I tried many different detergents but never found one which didn't cause problems, so I've just continued to run an extra cycle. My GI doctor didn't really believe me when I told him. I wonder how many people are having their IBS/IBD symptoms exasperated by detergent residue left on their dishes.

[runnerup]

There are so, so many cases like this with modern chemicals. Air fresheners in office bathrooms being another major “ghost” aggravation is another one.

In general I low-key proselytize the practice of removing excess stuff from air using HEPA and carbon filters to make a space smell better, rather than adding even more shit to the air (candles, scented sprays, etc). Also the benefits of using “free and clear” products. And using just water or water+soap with a rag to clean countertops/surfaces rather than weird chemical disinfectants that leave a microbial-toxic film of chemicals on the surfaces like Pledge.

I personally use marijuana-growing carbon scrubbers to clean my home air, see TerraBloom products. It’s made a massive difference for my family.

[wnkrshm]

I'm allergic to lemonenes ('citrus/orange smell'), the oil in the shell of citrus fruits. It's in everything. Deodorant, soap, detergent, various cleaners etc.

Every time there's some sort of "better smell" somewhere, where it's just "nice to have" I think: why? Why have this as well on top of everything?

[DoreenMichele]

Probably someone just trying to make a buck.

We all gotta eat and doing something "meaningful" often seems like the worst possible way to try to keep a roof over your head. Doing something seemingly trivial that you imagine won't be controversial and that will be a "nice to have" for enough people to pay your own bills probably seems to some people like the best way to get by in this world.

And they probably didn't think anyone was allergic to something so seemingly trivial and didn't think it could be a big deal in that way.

Edit: I'm on your side if that's not clear. I spend a lot of time wondering how we solve this and my hypothesis is we first understand why this crap happens and I think "we all gotta eat" is, unfortunately, a root cause of a lot of ills in the world today and I don't know how we fix it.

[eMPee584]

Your statement

> "we all gotta eat" is […] root cause of a lot of ills in the world today

hits the nail quite well I think. People are forced to generate income, even when that is to the detriment of other people or the environment. Natural resources are exploited without restraint, factories keep producing incompatible, low quality electronics and online services that harm mental health but create a profit are pushed onto markets with great vigor.

But with the advent of machines of human-level ability (physical & cognitive), within the next decade, human labour will not be competitive any more. This provides us a unique opportunity to overcome the traditional compulsions of our current growth-fixated economic framework and transition to a steady-state, cooperative economy (aka RBE) instead. That means leaving behind barter trade and local optimization for individual or company profit, paving the way to a good life for all, without time pressure and compulsory work. We (Open Source Ecology Germany) are actually working on getting funding (via PrototypeFund.de) for a cooperative economy simulation game.. To make it easier for people to imagine a post-capitalist economy and to start working on rules and organisational mechanisms for such a society. HN is invited oc ; )

[bootlooped]

I use a similar setup just for near my cat litter box. Almost totally eliminates pet smell. I have an AC Infinity fan I really like, it's very quiet on the lowest 3 of 8 speeds. The filter is just some generic brand. I never want to own pets without this level of air filtration again.

[TheBlerch]

No offense intended, but the best way to reduce any potential odors from your cat’s box is simply to pick it up regularly. Several times per day when my partner or I pass the box we scoop it and place the waste in a sealed bag in a sealed bucket. Takes 30 seconds. Never had issues with odors and the cats appreciate a clean box, just as any person appreciates a clean bathroom (more so for cats with their stronger sense of smell). And from time to time fully empty and wash down the box tray with soap. We’ve been shocked by how poorly many people maintain their cat boxes, which leads to the misconception that cats are smelly. They are incredibly clean animals, far cleaner than we humans. And we’ve been asked by some guests why our house doesn’t have that “pet/cat smell.” Empty the box regularly, you’ll be amazed by the results.

[rodent_rodeo]

Counter point: I don’t eat raw uncooked mice nor lick my excrement shoot. Then again maybe it’s because I have unrefined country barn cats who are lacking culture.

[germinalphrase]

Do you use the carbon scrubbers in-line with your HVAC or did you rig of some kind of stand alone system?

[runnerup]

Stand-alone. I got two cylindrical carbon filters and one fan. I slide the three components together and then stand them up vertically like a floor standing speaker.

Currently living in an apartment. It scrubs the air really quite fast. Helps a lot with kitchen smoke, pet smells, cleaning chemical vapors, and new furniture/plastic VOCs.

I also live in the middle of a bunch of chemical plants so it’s invaluable for the 3-5 leak events we experience every week.

One of our cats has learned how to turn our HPA300 fan to “turbo mode” by bopping the correct button with his paw. This year he’s been an excellent early warning system for nearby chemical plant leaks and I’ve learned to blindly trust his judgment so I just turn the scrubber fan to 100% whenever the cat turns up our largest HEPA air filter.

I recognize this sounds insane.

[bharrisonit]

Please indicate the correct kind of cat to complete the BOM for this system.

[runnerup]

My BOM:

- $199: TerraBloom 6" Silenced EC Inline Duct Fan, ECMF-150-S, 288 CFM, 36W

- $114: TERRABLOOM 6" AIR FILTER 24" LONG, 1.8" (46MM) THICK,

- $80: TERRABLOOM 6" AIR FILTER 16" LONG, 1.8" (46MM) THICK

- $3,000 (2022 prices): Siberian cat. Bought before recent price rises where the prices have apparently more than doubled, somewhat killing my dream of getting another Siberian kitten. Closely related to Maine Coon and Norwegian Forest Cat. Very very very playful and social. Enjoys playing friendly games of tackle with my Texas Heeler dog (50% Australian Cattle Dog, 50% Australian Shepherd), and often can be found entertaining itself throughout the day by training my dog. Naturally played fetch with plastic water bottle caps from a young age. Wants lots, and lots, and lots, of cuddles and play time. Our other Siberian, which was imported from Russia by American breeders, has had a very rough life and joined us late in her life. She has a very similar natural temperament. All three shed a truly totally insane amount of fur -- recommend Miele vacuums which are fully sealed with proper gaskets for maximum suction and minimum allergen leaking/spreading...Dyson strongly not recommended. He has had a lifelong fascination with dissecting electromechanical objects, especially air filters, and insists to supervise/assist with all maintenance work going on in the home. He learned that biting apple cables causes humans to stop using the laptop and destroyed $1,000 of laptop chargers when first generation MagSafe charges had non-detachable cables. Unlike his older sister, he has never had interest in killing/murdering animals, but enjoys removing all the legs from cockroaches and then playing fetch with himself by throwing the body around. Announces most of his poops with a loud meow and insists that the litter box be maintained daily. Enjoys training the humans, especially enjoys training the dog to get the humans to perform desired behaviors on his behalf. Contrary to marketing materials, neither Siberian is actually "hypoallergenic" in any sense of the word...maybe they're "less" allergenic but they still cause a lot of allergies and sheets/pillowcases need to be changed often.

I'd probably go 8" if I was buying today, I hedged a bit cheaper because I wasn't sure if the quality/performance would be what I needed.

[TheBlerch]

Thanks for sharing your air filter setup. How large is the space you’re filtering with your setup and how many months do the Terrabloom filters last before you have to change them? Also where’s the HEPA component of the system? (Agree about Miele vacuums with a HEPA filter insert, which is supposed to be changed annually. Mieles also last forever with minor maintenance).

[tpxl]

> recommend Miele vacuums which are fully sealed with proper gaskets for maximum suction and minimum allergen leaking/spreading...Dyson strongly not recommended

Have you tried a water vaccuum? :)

[pcthrowaway]

This is like poetry. First comment I've "favourited" on HN that isn't explaining some deeply technical thing I want to reference later

[hackernewds]

This made my week

[mschuster91]

> I recognize this sounds insane.

The insane thing is not your cat - cats are damn smart if they want to. The insane thing is that leak events happen multiple times a week and nothing seems to happen, or that residential zoning is right next to heavy industry in the first place. WTF?

[runnerup]

Agreed. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33427667 for a detailed explanation.

I also constantly rant about the zoning thing. Even if you believe people should be allowed to live where they want, there should be more information provided to help dramatically lower the price of that housing but the apartments cost about the same as apartments in cleaner parts of the city 60 miles away.

[fooblaster]

I think I'm going to try this. A little concerned about the wobbly-ness of the vertical stack of all of these given the weight of the filters. Seems like all these systems are intended to be ceiling mounted to grow tents. Wish there was a nice metal frame that could be used to floor-mount this setup a little more elegantly.

[Obscurity4340]

That is the damndest thing

[hammock]

What size did you get and what size is your apartment? Just looked up Terrabloom and I want these yesterday.

[runnerup]

I would personally get the silenced fans in the largest diameter you can afford / fits in your desired space because it will move larger amounts of air more quietly. The apartment was 700 sq. ft. I got the silenced 6" and it's reasonably quiet at most speeds, and not that loud at the highest speed -- putting filters at both intake and outlet greatly reduced the noise vs. just one side.

If you get the filters and fans in the same diameter they will just slip together without any additional hardware. But it will be quite wobbly. I used velcro (monoprice, laying around for wire-taming) to secure it to a vertical bookshelf.

My BOM: - $199: TerraBloom 6" Silenced EC Inline Duct Fan, ECMF-150-S, 288 CFM, 36W

- $114: TERRABLOOM 6" AIR FILTER 24" LONG, 1.8" (46MM) THICK,

- $80: TERRABLOOM 6" AIR FILTER 16" LONG, 1.8" (46MM) THICK

I'd probably go 8" if I was buying today, I hedged a bit cheaper because I wasn't sure if the quality/performance would be what I needed. This has been running for 9 months now with almost no noticeable degradation in performance, although I'm not currently quantifying it. Eventually I intend to install 3 VOC sensors, one outside the unit near the intake, one inside the unit, and one outside the unit at the outlet....to measure the VOC scrubbing efficiency curve over time and assist in deciding when to replace the carbon.

We've been running it 24 hours per day, usually about 40% but sometimes at the lowest setting (maybe 25%) and sometimes at the highest 100% setting.

After 9 months, it can still use it for point sources of concentrated smells like soldering and it captures 100% of the odors. And this is operating in a high-VOC environment near a lot (dozens) of chemical plants on our side of the city.

[birken]

I've been running a similar setup next to my litter box for about 2 years using "Vivosun" products, which seem like a cheaper knockoff version of Terrabloom.

The Terrabloom stuff looks higher quality and I can't compare it directly to Vivosun, but I've got no complaints about my Vivosun duct fan or carbon filters. I'm not necessarily suggesting one brand over the other, but just to add that you can run a knockoff version of this setup for a lower cost.

[lend000]

Love coming to HN and learning from the in-depth research of others on topics like these.

How important do you think the external fan is? (versus just placing it next to the modest airflow of a HEPA filter, as a sibling commenter suggested)

[rngname22]

the one major downside you'll find to terrabloom is how often you have to replace the carbon filters, but that's just true of carbon air filtering in general.

[phil-martin]

This really interests me, and I want to set up a similar system.

Can you describe the massive difference it’s made for family?

[runnerup]

I live in the middle of a lot of chemical plants. They have leaks constantly, like 3-5 moderate events per week.

Different chemicals cause disparate effects on my wife and I, but often manifests as anxiety, asthma, lethargy, general sense of being very uncomfortable.

Additionally we have two cats and a dog in a small apartment and sometimes they pee on the carpet/etc.

The carbon scrubber reduces the noticeable chemical plant effects down to just once a week, and greatly minimize that as well. Has completely eliminated stress caused by residual pet pee vapors.

We do have a bissell big green machine that we use regularly to clean the carpets and lots of HEPA air filters for dander, pollen, and other particulates.

But knocking out VOCs using a carbon scrubber has truly been wonderful. Works very very well whenever we get new furniture etc that offgasses for a week or so.

[hackernewds]

> marijuana-growing carbon scrubbers to clean my home air

Would you mind expanding on that?

[azinman2]

Just repurposed from a company called terrabloom. I use their fans with a duct as a diy solder fume extractor. It’s a very powerful fan.

[avanai]

OK I read this as carbon-scrubbers which grow marijuana. I dunno, maybe it helps oxygenate the air. Or maybe I haven’t had coffee yet.

[nano9]

I have a similar tale to tell. Ever since I've taken activated charcoal regularly, I have felt considerable improvement in my digestion and overall well-being. I feel happier, even. The charcoal is "sourced from non-GMO coconuts" which I don't necessarily believe but I take it as a sign that it's a higher quality product instead of repackaged industrial waste (like a lot of the market probably is).

I take 1000mg of activated charcoal per day and feel better. It is paradoxical, because all charcoal does is absorb. It makes me think that everything we put into our bodies nowadays is poison. And if all charcoal does is absorb, maybe most foods are a net negative. My interest in fasting has piqued as a result.

I think we are entering an era of rampant industrialization wherein the products (food, soaps, cookware coatings, packaging materials, etc.) are not necessarily the best products on the market, but simply cost effective enough to put on the shelves--meaning if waste can get on the shelf through clever marketing and engineering then it will.

[rapnie]

Not directly related to the food products as your refer to them, but a couple of years ago there was the big Cradle-to-Cradle "Waste is Food" hype. Loved by many companies and governments. As a result in The Netherlands this whole paper bureaucracy appeared where through all kinds of tricks you can transform almost any waste back into 'building materials' that are good for the market again. In many cases waste processing became extra profitable. Companies get paid for waste removal at some industry, do the magic transformation tricks, and sell building material at premium price.

So waste = food = money literally without much processing, and effectively just waste = money. A process where waste conveniently disappears on paper only and is spread out over the lands without many people complaining. It is like waste processing of the 60's but way smarter.

[noduerme]

Literally "spread out over the lands"...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/19/us-state...

[m463]

I wonder about sulfates, specifically SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate - which has many whack-a-mole names). SLS is a surficant, and although not named in this study, it has been shown in other studies to interfere with mucous membranes (canker sores, etc)

I would wonder if that happens in the gut too.

It is in many things. toothpaste, shampoo, dishwasher and laundry detergents, and lots more

Since people are trying to avoid SLS, MANY tricky marketing synonyms have appeared to obfuscate ingredient lists:

https://chem.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/rn/151-21-3

[blibble]

> Since people are trying to avoid SLS, MANY tricky marketing synonyms have appeared to obfuscate ingredient lists:

this seems to be almost the definition of evil

people are trying to avoid something specific that makes them ill, so they try to hide it from them instead?

scum

[jamal-kumar]

The best part is all SLS does is contribute to the foaming of the toothpaste, that's literally all it does (Same thing in soap). It's just to give some psychological idea that foamy toothpaste cleans better. Something like a focus group in the 1950s came up with this ingredient.

[kragen]

no

it's a surfactant

surfactants emulsify lipids in polar liquids like water

such emulsification is crucial to many kinds of cleaning

because cell membranes are lipid bilayers surfactants also can cause cytolysis, maybe relevant if you're trying to get bacterial films off your teeth, and sds is commonly used for this in bio labs

surfactants also often foam but this is irrelevant

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dodecyl_sulfate

[jamal-kumar]

I could imagine there's better surfactants than that out there, you sound correct and now i feel my dentist is full of lies

[kragen]

research papers in biomedical fields often drip with disdain for 'practitioners' (doctors, dentists, nurses, etc.) because their knowledge of chemistry, epidemiology, genomics, etc., is so limited and often wrong

i'd like to see one of those statisticians save an abscessed motherfucking molar though

anyway your dentist is probably not actually being bribed by tom's of maine, he just knows a lot of his patients had less canker sores when they stopped using toothpaste with dish detergent in it

because guess what else has cell membranes

[egberts1]

Worse, these SLS gets the EPA Safe Product seal too.

https://www.epa.gov/saferchoice/safer-ingredients#searchList

[ornornor]

Welcome to late stage capitalism I guess.

[rubicon33]

I used to get canker sores every once in a while.

I cut out SLS by purchasing Toms toothpaste, and that helped a lot.

I would still get them though, maybe twice a year.

The thing that finally fixed it was almonds. I stopped eating almonds and I’ve never had a canker sore since.

[bluecalm]

No idea about canker sores but cold sores outbreaks (caused by the herpes virus) are linked to almonds consumption because they are heavy in arginine and don't have much lysine.

[hackernewds]

Same effect for me. SLS toothpaste gives me canker sores. Or at least prevents their healing

[bredren]

I also had to switch from SLS toothpaste. I used to use a thing called Rembrandt gentle, but they stopped selling that so I started using something called Squigle, which has atrocious branding but is just fine.

I have some amount of uncooked nut allergy and chocolate allergy that causes similar effects to SLS toothpaste. I'm still trying to figure it out.

I wanted to pass along this product I found a few years ago that really changed the game for me though, check out "Durham's Bee Farm, Inc. Canker-Rid."

This has been a problem for me since I was a kid, and all we had back then was Campho-Phenique and pain killing gels. Those things were / are awful. This bee stuff is absolutely amazing. 10/10 check it out.

[mwigdahl]

I'm also SLS sensitive. I found "Verve" toothpaste on Amazon. Reasonable minty taste, cheap, and SLS-free. There are options out there but you really have to search hard for them.

[chadcmulligan]

I've had mouth ulcers (canker sores) all my life.

Things I've found that cause them:

- Pineapple

- Lemon/Lime juice

- Chilli

- Sometimes Chocolate

Things that prevent/reduce them:

B6/B12/Folate

[ornornor]

Same here. Took me two decades to figure it out.

Hardly ever get them anymore since when it was a weekly occurrence before.

There aren’t many SLS free toothpastes. In Europe I found Elmex and in the Americas Sensodyne (not all, check ingredients)

[hgomersall]

There's apparently evidence that emulsifiers added to food are problematic regarding mucus membranes, as well as gut biome. We try to avoid foods that contain them as additives as much as possible (and they really are everywhere).

[mikewarot]

>I wonder about sulfates, specifically SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate

Dawn is my favorite dishwashing liquid of all times, SLS seems to be the first active ingredient[1]. What should I use instead?

[1] https://dawn-dish.com/en-us/how-to/what-dawn-is-made-of-ingr...

[goda90]

I wonder if it's fine if you thoroughly rinse dishes and wear gloves while doing the dishes.

[krageon]

Are you sick? No? Then what is the issue here?

[omniglottal]

Are organisms other than the individual in question attempting to survive unscathed where SLS exists in the water which goes down the drain and gutters and ultimately into watersheds? Your inability to recognize the issue upon narrowly imagining an individual human as the only potential victim does not eliminate it's deleterious effect on biomes and, by extension, humanity. Your invalidation is, itself, invalid. I hope this ability to rationalize away real problems by means of intentional ignorance is never applied to a human other than yourself, as others may recognize this as a genuine cognitive sickness. Please do not spread this illness.

[stephen_g]

The article references another article about SLS in toothpaste (unfortunately not accessible without paying) - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00016357.2019.1...

Just seeing that makes me want to switch toothpaste. There looks to be an 'Oral B Toothpaste Pure' that doesn't have SLS or colourants, might give that a go.

[wiml]

I stopped getting canker sores some years ago after changing toothpastes. Having read of SLS, I assumed that was the culprit — but no, I read the ingredients and my new "good" toothpaste also has SLS. So whatever the change was, that wasn't it. For all I know it wasn't even the toothpaste at all!

[stephen_g]

Interesting. Could have also been a concentration thing, if the newer one just had less of it. But yeah, could potentially have been something else completely!

[nerdponx]

Tom's of Maine has a "Botanically Bright" and "Botanically Fresh" brand that use some other dispersants instead of SLS, although who knows if that's any better: https://www.tomsofmaine.com/our-promise/ingredients/sodium-l...

[runnerup]

https://sci-hub.ru/https://doi.org/10.1080/00016357.2019.157...

Here's a non-paywalled copy of that same article.

[zorgmonkey]

Do you happen to know of somewhere in the US that sells that 'Oral B Toothpaste Pure'? Everywhere I can find that sells seems to be in Europe or Australia which I assume would mean paying a stupid amount in shipping fees.

[stephen_g]

It might have just been an Australian market thing? Unfortunately after I posted, when I went to try and order it from Chemist Warehouse (big chain here) it was out of stock, and lots of other places have it on their sites but out of stock too. So it seems to be discontinued even though Oral B still list it on their Australian site...

I’m trying a SLS-free toothpaste now from a local company (again Australian) called Grant’s, but they only have one with fluoride, which has a bit of an intense flavour. But it’s OK. They do seem to have a US distributor but I don’t know if it’s available anywhere over there. Sensodyne as the other commenter mentioned does have SLS free toothpastes but I wanted to avoid some of the other things in it (not that there’s strong evidence against their use, but one ingredient, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, is just a potential irritant, I wanted to avoid the sweetness, and the EU has stopped allowing titanium dioxide in food).

[ornornor]

Sensodyne is easy to find in the Americas and has at least one variant without SLS.

[version_five]

I worked in an office where I eventually realized I got annoying to bad GI problems whenever I drank the water (won't describe in detail but very atypical and I at first wondered why it only happened when I was in the office), and someone else there once mentioned they had the same problem. I always used the office-services provided glasses to drink out of, and reading this it seems very likely it could have been residue on them

[heavyset_go]

Might also be the result of shitty water treatment or softening, or even the state of the water source, water main and pipes in the building. Some water softening is done via agents like EDTA, which are also used heavily in soaps and detergents.

[datavirtue]

I have seen five gallon bottled water grow algae. It was from a professional water service to the office.

[heavyset_go]

Yup. I once found out that I had been drinking water from a source that had mold growing all inside the water fountain's plumbing itself. It explained why I constantly felt like shit, given my mold allergy.

[Vrondi]

I had issues severe enough to visit a gastroenterologist, which turned out to be caused by a water filter that wasn't being changed. I stopped consuming water going through that filter, and all symptoms went away within a day or two. It was stunning.

[emmelaich]

I don't touch water from a filter or (if I can avoid it) bottled water.

Tap water in Sydney and most of Australia is excellent.

[runnerup]

Same where I grew up. The town regularly won awards for far surpassing all the drinking water standards, even the super strict totally voluntary standards they additionally attempted to meet and exceed.

Then I moved to Houston. After talking with some water treatment engineers, I only drink bottled water here. Was very hard to change my habits.

[rodface]

>Then I moved to Houston

Kindly elaborate! I live here, too.

[solarpunk]

Y'all just had a boil water notice, no?

[aussieshibe]

I don't know about the health side, but growing up on South Australian rain and tap water, I think the Sydney tap water tastes absolutely foul by comparison.

[noduerme]

True story... Years ago, my friend (let's call her "Alice") and I put it together that whenever we went over to "Bob's" house for dinner we both got the runs. Finally, one of us mentioned it to Bob and he immediately blamed his wife: "I've told her," he said, "sometimes she doesn't wash the soap off the plates well enough." Something like that had never occurred to me. Sheer speculation, but it made some sense, as the dinners themselves were fairly basic.

[starfallg]

We stopped using any toothpaste with Sodium Laureth Sulfate in it and our whole family stopped suffering from mouth ulcers.

There's a lot of commonly used chemicals that are irritants and disrupt how the body works, but are underneath the threshold of toxicity.

[hardwaregeek]

I’m curious, did you ever try using less detergent? Like cutting one of those pouches in half? It’d be messy but maybe it’d work.

[nerdponx]

Don't use the damn pouches! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

[SV_BubbleTime]

A. Watch his follow up video. Where he talks about all he got wrong.

B. I recently switched to a more “natural” SevenGenerations pouch and holy crap it’s been excellent.

C. You can not buy anything but pods at two of my grocery stores. You need to go to Walmart near me to find any straight powder. Market has spoken right or wrong.

[nerdponx]

> Market has spoken right or wrong.

I call BS on this. The non-pouch detergents disappeared, that much I know. I strongly doubt people had stopped buying gel and powder. I suspect that some bright bulb at Johnson & Johnson or wherever did the math and realized that pouch margins were higher than gel and powder margins.

[michael1999]

The marketing side of the market has spoken.

Fixed serving sizes force over-use. Lots of included water means extra volume and weight (perceived value) on the shelf. While powders allow measured use, and reduce turnover.

I buy 20lb boxes of cheap powder and they last for months. Hot water just doesn’t need that much help if you put some in the pre-wash too.

[AdrianB1]

20 years ago in my country overuse of powder detergents was well known by all the manufacturers; this is when fixed serving sizes were developed as a way to contain the problem and they are also considered more convenient by most consumers. I was working in one of these companies at that time, so I know the subject pretty well.

[Schroedingersat]

> I buy 20lb boxes of cheap powder and they last for months.

...is this a commercial kitchen? 20lb is like two loads a day for a year.

[kube-system]

> The non-pouch detergents disappeared

? I still see them everywhere. And a quick Amazon search for “cascade complete” lists gel as the first result and powder as the third.

[nerdponx]

The local supermarkets all stock literally one or two boxes on the shelf at a time, even though I know they have more in the back because as soon as I buy one it's put back on the shelf the next day. Something really funny is going on, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some contractual arrangement to artificially limit the amount that appeared in stock, to make it seem less appealing.

[SV_BubbleTime]

Yea, I didn’t list Amazon. I said in the stores near me. Last I checked, Amazon’s thing was to have everything.

[XorNot]

What he got wrong was... You might want to use less detergent to avoid residues.

The pouches are still pointless.

We switched and it almost completely solved our "dishes not getting cleaned properly" problem.

[dhritzkiv]

Same.

Switching to powder has done a lot for us in getting dishes cleaner, and we can dial in the amount of powder needed for the particular soil level of a load.

The fact that it's cheaper per load, and the box fits more neatly under the sink are added benefits.

[MereInterest]

And if your hands are slightly damp, the cardboard box for the powder doesn't stick to your fingers, where a dissolvable membrane would start dissolving on you.

[insane_dreamer]

We use dissolvable tablets (from Blueland) with all "natural" ingredients; can't vouch for how true the natural claim is, but we're happy with them and it's one way to reduce plastic; we also get their dissolvable tablets for hand soap, all purpose cleaners, glass cleaner, etc.

[TylerE]

Plenty of things that are “all natural” will kill you in the blink of an eye

[hackernewds]

Like arsenic

[garyfirestorm]

I tried the dishwasher tablets and felt like it didn’t clean the dishes as well. We been using the hand soap and other cleaners and I’m never going back on those. Maybe I need to give the dishwasher tabs a try again.

[insane_dreamer]

Maybe it depends on the dishwasher. We used them in our previous house and weren't as impressed with them but then moved and our new dishwasher works very well with them.

[darkwater]

TIL American dishwashers expect hot water input. This seems... bad?

[nerdponx]

It's only bad if the hot water takes a long time to get hot, which used to be much more problems than it is in newer systems.

[Scoundreller]

Or run half in the pre-wash cycle and the other in regular cycle.

Can also help to run/prime your hot water tap before starting cycle to start off with hot water (in places where it’s hooked up to hot).

[acjohnson55]

I also learned this hot water trick.

Apparently, energy efficient dishwashers have an energy budget per cycle and will only put a fixed amount into heating water, so getting hotter water into the dishwasher makes a huge difference in performance.

[nijave]

The difference with "primed" hot water is pretty crazy for something that seems trivial. I've also found opening the door and jiggling the racks during the drying cycle also makes a pretty big difference (assuming you catch it at the right time--and use heated dry)

[michael1999]

Some vinegar in the dispenser will fix the spots.

[dreamcompiler]

Or a half teaspoon of citric acid powder.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

Hope you enjoy replacing seals

[hjadal]

Theres also liquid or powder detergent, which allows you to use a fitting amount for the dishwasher load.

[SV_BubbleTime]

Liquids have enzymes or bleach. They might have oxiclean instead of bleach but apparently the two best cleaning agents don’t exist in liquid together very well.

Powder is better. Pods are just powder.

[amanaplanacanal]

But the pods have too much detergent. Since there is no detergent in the pre-wash, they put too much in the main wash.

[tharkun__]

I always break a corner off the pod and crumble it into the pre-wash partition since watching the video nerdponx in the sibling thread posted (found it through a different post maybe a half year or so ago also here on HN). I also do the hot-water priming when I remember to.

[insane_dreamer]

You can also get dissolvable tablets (basically powder stuck together).

[throwaway2037]

This post is incredible. How did you get the idea to experiment with your dishwasher? Another question: If you wash dishes by hand, is everything OK?

[michaelteter]

While searching for causes, did you also look at ways to strengthen/rebalance/improve your GI system?

I'm not sure if this will turn out to be quackery or snake oil, but the Super Gut book by William Davis makes some believable claims as to common causes of digest issues (along with solutions).

[XorNot]

A HN poster recommended L. Reuteri supplements a while back, and I cannot recommend them enough: 6 months on and I've been able to completely drop a prucalopride prescription and have almost eliminated what used to be frequent and fairly crippling gut pain.

The key I found was at about the 2 month mark things seemed to be getting worse, but after that a dramatic improvement. I was able to stop the supplements after the 3 month pack, though 6 months on there was some regression so I'm taking another round (which seems to have improved things).

It might not be possible for whatever reason to sustain the culture in my intestine, but it's been the first actual improvement I've had in decades.

Available as BioGaia, I recommend trying it if you have IBS symptoms.

[michaelteter]

This is good to hear. The Super Gut book describes a somewhat involved process in stages, with the latter rebuilding stage involving growing your own high population cultures; so it's nice to know that comparatively low effort supplements can be effective.

The first stage of resetting, as described in the book, was to rebuild the lining of the intestine. Forgive my imprecision in describing it, as I have forgotten the details and don't feel like digging. The issue is that many of our foods are made with emulsifiers (baked goods, ice creams, etc.), and emulsifiers cause thinning of the intestine walls. That in turn creates a less than optimal environment, causing losses of good bacteria as well as increases/movements of bad bacteria.

Fortunately that first stage is pretty easy - making clove tea with a couple other ingredients daily. I actually found it pleasant after the first few days. And then I read about clove tea and discovered that it's already a big thing, but where I grew up we've never heard of it!

[slv77]

It also makes a delicious yogurt like product. Tastes somewhere between cream cheese and Greek yogurt. (https://www.luvele.com/blogs/recipe-blog/new-improved-l-reut...)

[Melatonic]

Get some Natto at any local asian market. Bonus if you make it yourself which is pretty easy. There are now also bacillus subtilis supplements out there but the full food is much better.

[Schroedingersat]

You can put stronger/commercial detergent in the pre-wash dispenser (or just dump it wherever before running) and then a small amount of castile soap + citric acid (or just citric acid) in the main dispenser.