[trasz]

Puertoricans are American citizens by name only - they can’t vote, for example. It’s a colony, and US treats it as such - it doesn’t enjoy the privileges of actual US territory.

If you want to help, becoming a proper, independent country could be a good start. The majority of citizens opposes the current colonial status, as evidenced by several referendums, but, well, it’s not theirs to decide - because they are just a colony and aren’t allowed to vote.

[Art9681]

Puertoricans wear the same uniform and fight in the same wars as all Americans so that folks can continue to say ignorant stuff like the comment above. My great grandfather did it. My grandfather. I did it. And I’m sure the tradition will continue.

From Title 8-ALIENS AND NATIONALITY CHAPTER 12-IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY SUBCHAPTER III-NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION Part I-Nationality at Birth and Collective Naturalization

All persons born in Puerto Rico on or after April 11, 1899, and prior to January 13, 1941, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, residing on January 13, 1941, in Puerto Rico or other territory over which the United States exercises rights of sovereignty and not citizens of the United States under any other Act, are declared to be citizens of the United States as of January 13, 1941. All persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, are citizens of the United States at birth.

[philistine]

It's not that the people of Puerto Ricans are lesser americans. It's that Puerto Rico itself as an institution has less rights. If a Puerto Rican moves to Alabama, they get the same rights and privileges, like voting, as anybody else.

[sophacles]

Yes, they get to die for the USA. But they don't get a say like real citizens - no congressmen, no electoral votes, no senators. They do get to pay taxes though. Before you rant about how that's not important, I'd like to remind you of a certain group of English citizens who didn't have representation but were allowed to die and pay taxes for England.

[whimsicalism]

Was I not a citizen until I was first able to vote for federal representation at the age of 25 after moving out of my hometown of DC?

[sophacles]

Yes.

Real is probably the wrong term here, but certainly a citizen without the full suite of rights granted to you. If you have all the obligations without all the rights, you are a second class citizen. It's frankly absurd that someone can live within the US as a "citizen" without getting have meaningful representation.

[bombcar]

Many Americans are second-class citizens because they live in areas where even if they DID vote, it wouldn't count for anything.

If Puerto Rico and DC were suddenly made part of California, nothing would change but suddenly they'd be "first class citizens"? (Besides now paying federal income tax)

[nameless912]

That's just factually not true. Yes, the presidential election is fucked because the electoral college means that >70% of americans' votes are meaningless, but at the state and local level elections make a HUGE difference. And yes, that's not ideal, but it's a bit flippant and defeatist to write off all elections just because the presidential elections are screwed up.

[whimsicalism]

I wish residents of DC didn't have to pay federal income tax :P

DC being part of California would marginally change the distribution of the House. Agreed the Senate & FPTP is undemocratic.

[gambiting]

That's a weird argument. By the same logic current and former convicts are not citizens either.

[nameless912]

In the strictest sense of the word they _are_, but they lose a significant portion of their rights as citizens, even after serving their mandated sentence and "paying their debt to society" or whatever. I would actually argue that ex-cons aren't citizens in the practical sense specifically because they lose out on a bunch of rights they could freely exercise before their conviction.

And before we get into a debate about whether ex-cons "deserve" rights, their sentence is supposed to be them paying their debt to society. Why shouldn't their rights be restored after that?

[sophacles]

Well no - convicts are being punished for breaking the law.

People born, raised and still living in DC, Puerto Rico, US virgin islands, Guam, and Marianas are being punished for not breaking the law.

[boredumb]

NOT a colony.... we're a territory. If you think puerto rico becoming it's own country and missing out on the aid, support and ease of travel provided by the federal government you are either malevolent or naive.

Puerto Rican residents can vote on everything aside from federal elections.

[killerdhmo]

"Vote on everything aside federal elections" - what precisely did you think this means? We can't vote for the president, our elected officials to Congress can't vote on the laws that are passed. What "voting" can we do, other than yes, local elections?

[sergiomattei]

> Puerto Rican residents can vote on everything aside from federal elections.

So, a colony? Taxation without representation. We might not get taxed IRS federal planillas, but all the levies and duties plus the harmful Jones Act beg to differ with your characterization.

The US is choking our economy in its current status. Statehood or independence, a binding referendum is urgent at this point.

Oh, and don't you remember how the US Supreme Court declared us second-class citizens recently? [0]

[0]: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/scotus-declares-u-...

[trasz]

Yukon is a territory. Here, the "territory" is just a pretty name for a colony. You can't vote, US constitution doesn't quite apply, you're getting peanuts from federal aid, and when there's a humanitarian catastrophe you're left for a month without electricity - but you are very welcomed in armed forces, because you're competent and when you die it doesn't matter to decision makers, because you can't vote. In short - you pay the price, but you don't get the benefits. How's that different from a colony?

And yeah, becoming a US state would be better than independence, but it won't happen, because - you guessed it, you can't vote. By becoming an independent country you could get major powers to compete to do business with you - I'm pretty sure China would invest billions into your infrastructure, you could literally become America's Taiwan.

[LawTalkingGuy]

> You can't [...] you're getting peanuts [...] you can't vote

It kinda feels like you're trying to shame Puerto Ricans for being the USA's bitches or something but I don't think that's reasonable. Puerto Ricans are US citizens and can move anywhere in the USA which is not only valuable and lets them send money home but shows that they're respected as just other Americans.

> By becoming an independent country you could get major powers to compete to do business with you - I'm pretty sure China would invest billions into your infrastructure, you could literally become America's Taiwan.

Leave the one country that helps you, though maybe not enough, to be the puppet of their enemy. Like that's not going to end in pain, but that's not your concern as an outsider trying to accelerate chaos.

[trasz]

I’m absolutely not trying to shame anyone; I’m pointing out they are being exploited.

[colatkinson]

> NOT a colony.... we're a territory

How did the US acquire said territory? And after they acquired it, what did they do to those who did not want their nation to be a "territory?" For those unaware, I'll give you a hint: it did not involve a hearty Socratic discussion followed by a game of badminton [0].

> If you think puerto rico becoming it's own country and missing out on the aid, support and ease of travel provided by the federal government you are either malevolent or naive.

This worked out rather well for the Hawaiians, who are currently having their groundwater poisoned by the US military [1], and their ancestral land acquired by mainlanders while they are made homeless [2].

In the recent non-binding referenda, and the bill to have a binding referendum which recently died in committee, there has been an option for "independence with free association" -- that is, an independent nation-state but with strong free trade and free travel agreements baked in [2]. Statehood is that, plus being subject to the whims of voters in Wisconsin, Idaho, et al. as to whether Puerto Ricans should be allowed funding for things. Keep in mind that there is no way out of this setup short of insurrection.

Given Puerto Rico has a distinct language, culture, etc. from the US, I can only assume we're deciding that the Westphalian model of the nation-state is not a consideration. Given this, I would also like to propose the following for statehood:

1. Korea

2. Vietnam

3. Iraq

4. Iran

5. Afghanistan

6. Somalia

7. Syria

8. Mexico

9. Haiti

10. Dominican Republic

These countries would surely flourish with the support and aid provided by the US federal government. And they were already, at one point or another, occupied by the US. So I can think of no reason not to annex them, short of naïveté or malevolence.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utuado_uprising

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/04/the-us...

[2]: https://thehomemoreproject.org/blog/the-hawaiian-homelessnes...

[MockObject]

America acquired it fair and square, the same way nearly all land is acquired throughout human and animal history. Conquest. Those other areas haven't been annexed in the same way, because, after developments in the post WW2 era, acquisition evolved from outright colonization, to control using local proxies and a comprador class economically dependent on the core.

[sergiomattei]

> Puertoricans are American citizens by name only - they can’t vote, for example.

The veterans who died for the continental US beg to differ.

> If you want to help, becoming a proper, independent country could be a good start.

The US government has the full might of the US military, a reluctant political class and an economic interest in keeping it that way. It's difficult -- whether you're pro-statehood or independence.

[trasz]

> The veterans who died for the continental US beg to differ.

Only if they skipped their history classes - dying for the empire is a standard part of being a colony.

[thehappypm]

The arrangement of Puerto Rico being a territory was a strategic decision. PR independence has a long history, but ultimately the economic and military benefits of being US citizens ended up outweighing the desire for independence. Being a self governing territory won out as being a sort of best of both worlds.

[afiori]

The US does not grant the states a right to become independent countries either.