[sophacles]

Yes, they get to die for the USA. But they don't get a say like real citizens - no congressmen, no electoral votes, no senators. They do get to pay taxes though. Before you rant about how that's not important, I'd like to remind you of a certain group of English citizens who didn't have representation but were allowed to die and pay taxes for England.

[whimsicalism]

Was I not a citizen until I was first able to vote for federal representation at the age of 25 after moving out of my hometown of DC?

[sophacles]

Yes.

Real is probably the wrong term here, but certainly a citizen without the full suite of rights granted to you. If you have all the obligations without all the rights, you are a second class citizen. It's frankly absurd that someone can live within the US as a "citizen" without getting have meaningful representation.

[bombcar]

Many Americans are second-class citizens because they live in areas where even if they DID vote, it wouldn't count for anything.

If Puerto Rico and DC were suddenly made part of California, nothing would change but suddenly they'd be "first class citizens"? (Besides now paying federal income tax)

[nameless912]

That's just factually not true. Yes, the presidential election is fucked because the electoral college means that >70% of americans' votes are meaningless, but at the state and local level elections make a HUGE difference. And yes, that's not ideal, but it's a bit flippant and defeatist to write off all elections just because the presidential elections are screwed up.

[whimsicalism]

I wish residents of DC didn't have to pay federal income tax :P

DC being part of California would marginally change the distribution of the House. Agreed the Senate & FPTP is undemocratic.

[gambiting]

That's a weird argument. By the same logic current and former convicts are not citizens either.

[nameless912]

In the strictest sense of the word they _are_, but they lose a significant portion of their rights as citizens, even after serving their mandated sentence and "paying their debt to society" or whatever. I would actually argue that ex-cons aren't citizens in the practical sense specifically because they lose out on a bunch of rights they could freely exercise before their conviction.

And before we get into a debate about whether ex-cons "deserve" rights, their sentence is supposed to be them paying their debt to society. Why shouldn't their rights be restored after that?

[sophacles]

Well no - convicts are being punished for breaking the law.

People born, raised and still living in DC, Puerto Rico, US virgin islands, Guam, and Marianas are being punished for not breaking the law.

[gambiting]

That's a different argument though. Punished or not, they are still citizens - so clearly whether you can or cannot vote doesn't change your citizenship.

[sophacles]

See the first post of mine that you responded to:

> Real is probably the wrong term here, but certainly a citizen without the full suite of rights granted to you.

I acknowledged the thing you are objecting to before you started objecting. If you want to bikeshed a loosely used term after it's been acknowledged as being the incorrect term - have fun.