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by josephcsible 1349 days ago
> Amazon accepts the return with no questions and/or charges

But remember that Amazon keeps what's basically a social credit score on you that drops every time you return something, and then they permanently ban you (including from non-retail things like AWS and Prime Video) if it ever gets too low.

9 comments

Amazon tracks your returns, but if you're within their model, which is not particularly tight, you don't have anything to worry about.

It's mostly targeted toward people who are egregious, and more importantly, lose Amazon money.

If you return a few too many DSLRs, Apple laptops or other high end gear you'll quickly find yourself on the rocks, or decide you're going to start a drop-shipping business from your Prime account or maybe you regularly put bricks in your returns instead of the actual products.

By comparison there is my friend. She shops a lot on Amazon but not a huge amount, maybe 15 items or so a month on average. She returns a lot of items, at least 20%, sometimes 50% or 100%. Far from banning her she routinely gets courtesy credits and outside policy refunds to keep her happy.

This is after she had actually been banned by Amazon, but not by retail. Instead, she spent 2+ years returning every since book she purchased for her Kindle, well over 100, when she realized she could buy a book and immediately return it, but turn off the Kindle internet connection while she finished reading it, before it was removed. They banned her from ever doing another Kindle return but she otherwise uses her Kindle normally.

I mean, she could just download pirated books at this point. It doesn't matter if she got it through the store or not if she's going to exploit the system to read it without paying. The author won't see any money either way, so she can drop the pretense.
I would imagine the author would rather you just pirate the book than do this. Returns on a book can't be great for recomendation algorithms.
After Amazon's fees, returning books like this COSTS authors money.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tiktok-trend-authors....

Nah authors aren’t part of the equation, they got paid and now the publisher is the only party affected
> Instead, she spent 2+ years returning every since book she purchased for her Kindle, well over 100, when she realized she could buy a book and immediately return it, but turn off the Kindle internet connection while she finished reading it, before it was removed. They banned her from ever doing another Kindle return but she otherwise uses her Kindle normally.

Out of curiosity what goes through someones mind to think this is remotely acceptable?

Obviously by sharing this with you she sees nothing wrong/feels no remorse for what she does?

Blatant theft like this costs everyone money, why not just go to the library or something?

> Out of curiosity what goes through someones mind to think this is remotely acceptable?

Copying data is not theft.

They did not "copy data". they purchased something, returned it for a refund and then kept it by turning off the kindle's wifi.

This clearly is retail fraud.

Lots of things are fraud. Most of them are not theft.

The greatest ThinkSpeak the media industry pulled was to redefine copyright, contract, and license violations as "theft" and "piracy."

Saying something is not theft/harassment/abuse/murder/etc. isn't the same as saying it's okay. Precise language matters.

It's not possible for someone to steal my chair or my wallet without harming me. Actual theft usually is not a victimless crime, by definition. In contrast, most of the people I've seen engage in copyright violation are too poor to buy what they're copying. Virtually everyone I know starts paying when they get real jobs. How do I feel about a broke high school student breaking my license? It's complicated, but much less bad than about someone stealing my phone.

They didn’t purchase anything; the EULA says so plainly.
She could have just gotten those Kindle books from the library.

I recently dug into my property taxes and found I’m paying over $200/year (!) for the library. A lot more than the cost of Amazon Prime. Since I found this out, I’ve been using the library a lot more ..

As for our Amazon “customer score”, wish we could see it. I bet they have merchant scores too - would be interesting to see the number of returns per product displayed on each product page/merchant page.

I pay over $400 a year in property taxes to support our library system, but I'd be happy to pay twice that, partly because I get a huge amount of use out of the system (including ebooks, though honestly I prefer paper unless there a ton more holds), but also because it's one of the most tangible contributions to the quality of life in my city I fell I can make. Obviously roads without potholes and firefighters are great too...
> I’m paying over $200/year (!) for the library.

You aren't, you are funding it. Anyone can use the library.

Don't forget the online portion of your local library system, mine uses the mobile app Libby but other methods are available for ebooks/videos/audiobooks to loan, though the selection through each method is slightly different.
As an author you need a better class of friend, she is frankly a thief.
> she realized she could buy a book and immediately return it

Doesn't this cause authors to actually lose money, so it's worse than straight up piracy for them?

Indeed it does cost them, and so you are right - they should simply pirate instead.

The CBC did a writeup on this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tiktok-trend-authors....

>> If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about

> How do I know if I'm doing anything wrong?

>> ... that's proprietary

Nice, Amazon was capable to loose my iPhone 14 Pro twice and the courtesy credits I got was £5. At least the third time was charm
For my DIY hobby I buy a ton of stuff off Amazon - usually small parts under $15 dollars. I just checked and this year I've made 602 total purchases and, after checking the return e-mails they send, I've made 287 returns this year. I just click "bought by mistake each time".

If there is a social credit score based on number of returned items I still haven't hit it.

Excuse me, but do you believe this is "normal"?

I mean, if you returned 287/602=48% of the items you ordered, either there is something wrong in what you order or - more likely - your supplier (Amazon) is not reliable.

On the other side, if 48% of items (particularly if low value ones) are returned, the costs of shipping/returning/handling must be enormous.

I do not believe this is normal consumer behavior. The previous commenter claimed Amazon had a social score system that penalized people for concerns and you should be worried about making returns on things like USB drives.

My point is that if someone like me can return almost half their items and Amazon doesn't care at all - then it's extremely unlikely the people are being banned from Amazon services for returning a USB drive.

Yep, I understood your point, and it is good to know that this presumed social score system is not particularly strict, but I asked out of curiosity on the reasons why you have such a high (IMHO) return rate.

As well another question is what is actually doing (or not doing) Amazon about the USB sticks/drives issues, the return rate of that should be something like 90% assuming that 5% of buyers fail to realize that the size is much smaller and - still say - another 5% buys them "for later use" and do not test them on arrival.

In a traditional brick and mortar store there would be someone monitoring the return rate for defects on any item for sale as - besides the loss of perceived reliability - there would be objectives costs for handling the returns.

The reason I return a lot is predicated on their being no penalty and the fact I live a couple blocks from a UPS return location which is easy.

Say its Wednesday night and I'm starting to design a project I'm doing over the weekend but I'm not done yet - and realize I will need 8mm shafts but not sure the length of my design. I just buy 3 or 4 versions of the product with the approximate length I may need and then end up just using the one my final design calls for and returning the others.

And here I am thinking that 287 Amazon returns translates into $1435 in Kohls Cash… if you make the returns on the weekend anyway.
Did Amazon buy Kohls too? What do Amazon returns have to do with Kohls Cash?
> I mean, if you returned 287/602=48% of the items you ordered, either there is something wrong in what you order or - more likely - your supplier (Amazon) is not reliable.

In a case like this, there is a problem with the customer, that's it.

I have 300ish orders per year, and not even 5% returns.

They have never said what I am doing is wrong or bad. I would think best case scenario from them I don't return that many items, but realistically if I wasn't allowed to return that many items I simply wouldn't buy from them as much. Lowe's, which I buy from a lot too, has a similar no questions asked return policy.
In what way is there a problem? He hasn't been penalized, so it seems like he's profitable enough to let it go. Why are you trying to police his behavior for Amazon?
It's not because Amazon doesn't have a problem with it that there is no problem.

It's an incredibly wasteful way of shopping, it hurts the seller (which may not be Amazon itself), it hurts the environment, etc.

I almost never return, but there are domains with business models build upon massive numbers of returns.

This includes some parts of fashion. You buy online. If it doesn't fit, you return and buy another. There are hobbies which are similar. You buy extra parts, and return what you don't use.

The price factors in the 50+% return rate. If they didn't allow returns, no one would buy.

I don't know if that's what OP is doing, but I'm not ready to judge unless I know it's not.

Well for that matter, I have known people who buy fashion items online (that fit perfectly) use them on a dinner out and then return them because they don't fit or are not the expected colour, etc.

Still, since as you say these online sellers must calculate the prices of these goods to cover these return expenses, the other "normal" clients pay more and BTW there are thousands, millions packets going and returning (it is time, money, traffic, etc.).

It's a little different. For some of the fashion domains I'm thinking of don't have "normal" consumers, and most goods cost about the same as half of my entire wardrobe. For others, shopping is more like entertainment, and it's about the experience.
The credit doesn't just go by the number of returns - it also considers the total value of the returns and the value of purchase to value of returns ratio.
The commenter above was suggesting that returning a USB drive could hurt your social credit and I am saying that is overblown.

In my personal experience a large volume of returns won't even get you banned. A USB drive is also low value so assuming you are correct then again the fear of returning a USB drive should be zero.

I have always wondered about this. I buy and return a lot from Amazon. Do you have any further information? I've always looked to see but have never found anything myself.

Anecdotally, twice after periods of large purchases and high dollar amount of returns (because I was buying a lot of equipment and sometimes had to buy several of the same due to them coming faulty), I noticed same-day and next day shipping would disappear for a few months. I was never able to conclusively determine what the reason was though.

Also, it's extra work involved in returning something that shouldn't have been delivered in the first place. Just a waste of time, resources, and what not.
That’s called fraud prevention
>including from non-retail things like AWS

is there any example of this?

This is more common than it should be for accounts. So best to assume the least charitable and plan accordingly.

You lose access to your consumer Gmail, Drive, etc if your YouTube account gets banned for comments.

You lose access to your Epic Games dev account if you get banned from Fortnite (unless they decoupled this in last few years).

AWS used to be hard-linked to your Amazon shopping account back in the day (they can't separate them for you if you ask).

Yeah banning your customers seems like a great strategy /s
Banning your rare, abberantly unprofitable customers who may be abusing the return system is a good strategy, yes.
I did not know the consequences were so draconian. However, I would imagine returning faulty or fake products will not trigger a score decrease.
Is there a way to get this score under GDPR?