[cortesoft]

Oh man this is such a perfect example of productivity porn. Every action you take isn’t a vote for the type of person you wish to become, it is a vote taken by the person you are.

I hate this mindset of “I am constantly working towards becoming someone else”. When do we spend time as the person we are? When do we enjoy the fruits of our labor? I feel like some people who take this mindset see their lives as being two distinct phases… the building/growth phase where you grind and learn and work non stop, and then a later phase that comes after where you enjoy what you built.

I don’t think life works like that, and you will burn yourself out if you do it. Life needs to be built and enjoyed together, through your whole life.

[vhiremath4]

> Every action you take isn’t a vote for the type of person you wish to become, it is a vote taken by the person you are.

This is patently false. If you start smoking cigarettes occasionally and start doing it more, you are becoming more of a smoker. The actions you take or don't take are the clearest input to the person you become. It's true that this is also the person you are, but that distinction seems meaningless if you're trying to become someone better (whatever better means to you).

On a more general note (and this is what you are saying), you can both prioritize the things you need to do to progress and the time you need for enjoying yourself and your current life. These things are only mutually exclusive if you're pushing past your personal limits and there's a lot of inputs to that equation and whether that's worth it to each individual.

So my next question is: why such a strong aversion to people improving themselves? There is no problem with being competitive. However competitive you want to be, be. Do it for yourself. Don't know the author of the post, but people who are hyper competitive usually aren't telling others to also be hyper competitive (unless it's a Gary V or someone similar). From my experience, they're usually just doing their own thing.

[mikkergp]

If the only reason a person is having a conversation with me is so they can be a better conversationalist tomorrow, than they can fuck off. I worked out today, I ate healthy today, I worked hard and did chores for my family, and praticed my art forms and I did it all for today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with planning for tomorrow, but there is a problem with seeing "every action you take" that way.

Why do you sense this as a strong aversion to people improving themselves, and not a strong aversion to people trying to guilt people into seeing only one mindset to self improvement?

[1659447091]

I believe it's more along the lines of "I'm having a conversation with you today because I value and care about you and our friendship etc; I want to be the kind of person that shows up for others and leaves people I interact with in a better place/mood/etc."

Instead of being the person not aware of their moods and carrying resentment over the smallest slights so they end up bitching about it to everyone. If one never chooses, or "vote", for the positive/uplifting inter/action, then they are "voting" to keep being the person who always has something to complain about.

Similarly, the smoking example, choose to be someone who cares about their health or the person who could not care less. Better is defined by the user. But either way, it will certainly build, or describe, the type of person they are choosing or "voting" to be.

Though, its really just stating the obvious. The more you do or don't something the more those actions become you. The "votes" on those actions don't have to be overt. It's like they were trying to find a novel way to restate the self-help quote: "Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny." (-attributed to the usual suspects)

[tamrix]

Some people are so driven towards being productive that they think their time is worth more than others.

Why should I waste my day taking to you when I could be working and being more productive?

Eventually all your relationships, friends family etc are tied down to how much money you will be making with that time as it could be better spent working, making money .

So sure every choice is a vote for an improved you. No one would question such an obvious statement. But the way this is framed, is that every decision should be a productive one, which will net you more income.

So stop wasting your time and be more productive or your self worth is delimiting. Aka productivity porn.

[1659447091]

I can see how it is mostly viewed - even suggested - that way. I agree, these things tend to all nudge or write in a way that silently yells in that same direction for what "productivity" or "improvement" should mean. And I think we can end up taking those hints and running with it. It's exhausting.

What I failed to get across is that, if we read the subjective points with complete neutrality then the only thing really being stated is: what ever your purpose for doing something is the person you continue to become. Which, yea..

However, at its core it can be an actionable, and practical, statement that can simply be a reminder to be intentional in our actions. Advice completely devoid of the subjective judgment of that intent. But the energy needed to clean up the message to that point is not everyone's cup of tea.

[brailsafe]

Yes, I thought this way in my early twenties, and after that phase I learned to identify those (mutable) traits in others as hollow and immature. Often characterized by how arbitrarily they approach moments in life. Counter to this, I make a very deliberate effort to spend as much time as I feasibly can with specific people for no particular reason other than I enjoy their company and I want them to similarly feel like it's a relationship worth having around longer, because that's inherently virtuous. The activity could be arbitrary or specific. If it's specific, then I might choose the person specifically for it, but if the person is specific, then the activity arbitrarily serves the nature of spending time with the person. I'm never arbitrarily spending time with arbitrary people for a specific outcome though.

[vhiremath4]

I strongly agree with this. I think you really have to begin to love the journey if you want to improve at something with slow incremental gains over time. But everyone has to start somewhere, and, honestly speaking, most people don't want to work out. Most people don't want to work hard. Or eat healthy. You have to force yourself initially to see that this is going to lead to you loving to do these things you currently hate.

[karaterobot]

> This is patently false. If you start smoking cigarettes occasionally and start doing it more, you are becoming more of a smoker. The actions you take or don't take are the clearest input to the person you become. It's true that this is also the person you are, but that distinction seems meaningless if you're trying to become someone better (whatever better means to you).

I don't know about 'patently false': it's literally true. The things you do reflect who you are when you do them, the person you are becoming is a hypothetical who does not exist. For example, I am the one splitting hairs in this comment, not the future me who wants to be named world's biggest pedant.

What your example points out is someone who is doing more of something over time. A smoker who smokes more is a trend, not an action.

[stonemetal12]

It is a false dichotomy. Every action you take today is a vote by the you who exists right now. Every action you take today does build the history of the person you are tomorrow. It is not one or the other, but both.

[karaterobot]

Describing any action as a vote about your future identity is a way of thinking about the world. It makes sense within the particular framework this article is presenting, but it is not a universally held belief, and it's not self-evidently true. It's a metaphor.

Here's an example: if you choose not a rob a bank 10,000 times, that's 10,000 votes for not being a bank robber. Then if you choose to rob a bank just one time, you're suddenly a bank robber. 10,000 to 1, the number of votes doesn't actually matter.

That's a silly example, but what it means is that your identity isn't always the result of a bunch of small decisions. Often there's just one "vote", and that is the decision you make, the action you take.

One objection to this may be "but being a bank robber isn't who you are, it's just something you did." If so, I wonder how to square that with the example of becoming more of a smoker by smoking more cigarettes? Can I vote not to be a smoker, even if I smoke a lot of cigarettes? Or to be less of a smoker by smoking more cigarettes? That doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, hope this clarifies my objection: "actions are votes about who you will become" is a metaphorical explanation, not a literal one, so that comment way upthread is not patently false in my opinion, even if it's arguable.

[MichaelZuo]

Choosing not to rob a bank 10 000 times still means you are a potential bank robber, like everyone else on this planet. At the 10 001 choice where it actually happens, this simply turns the potential to actual.

[Ruthalas]

That is entirely correct, but it strains the voting metaphor a lot.

[wizofaus]

> There is no problem with being competitive.

I'd say there definitely is if you do everything in life that way. You seem to be assuming it's possible to be meaningful competitive without it affecting how you interact with other people. But competitive-minded people often make it abundantly clear to those around them how much they're "winning" and even make it a point of pride that others aren't doing so well. So yes, there definitely can be problems with being competitive. But our competitive instinct can be positive motivating force - we've all pushed ourselves that little harder knowing the reward will be a higher spot on the results table. How to combine that with not being an asshole about it seems to be the challenge.

[darkerside]

Salience bias. You don't notice the competitive people who aren't assholes, but there are plenty of them. Some of them are even humble.

[notyourwork]

> The actions you take or don't take are the clearest input to the person you become.

They are the clearest input to the person you *are*. I agree with the OP you replied to.

[P5fRxh5kUvp2th]

One wonders if you created this post to be come a better typist.

[mistermann]

> There is no problem with being competitive.

What if this is not true without exception?

> From my experience, they're usually just doing their own thing.

The "just" seems off - actions can affect the state of the system we all live in, and sometimes these effects are negative.

[cpursley]

> why such a strong aversion to people improving themselves

crab bucket mentality

[rukuu001]

In case people aren’t familiar with crab bucket mentality (I wasn’t) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

[Apocryphon]

These trends shift back and forth. A few years ago, certainly a decade ago, everyone was into productivity porn and life hacks and optimizing one's lives. Right now people are just generally burned out after the last couple of years.

[yodsanklai]

> why such a strong aversion to people improving themselves?

It's fine to be competitive or trying to improve. But it seems to me that people reading this type of self-improvement articles are wasting their time (ironic if they want to be more productive).

[s1artibartfast]

>It's true that this is also the person you are, but that distinction seems meaningless if you're trying to become someone better (whatever better means to you)

Do, or do not. There is no try.

This is a meaningful distinction, even if it is a nuanced one. There's a profound difference between focusing on who you want to be tomorrow versus who you want to be today.

One mindset takes you out of the present and is an act of self denial. The other embraces the present and affirms positive self identity.

[stjohnswarts]

Another mindset that gets overused is "always live in the now" . Sometimes you have to stop and assess what direction you're heading with in life...

[s1artibartfast]

It's sad that the idea of living in the now has been co-oped to mean acting impulsively and stupidity.

Being present has better connotations. Sometimes being present means stopping and assessing your life. It means engaging with your life in more holistic manner. It can mean planning, reflection, and listening to yourself.

I feel like many people code switch between being recklessly impulsive and intellectually abstract, while never actually living in the now.

These two avoidant behaviors are at the root most people's miseries.

You shouldn't have to fight yourself to do what is best for your future, or suppress your intellect to enjoy the present.

[yibg]

Is it? If you saw me smoking would you say "you are a smoker" or "you will become a smoker"?

[jrib]

> see their lives as being two distinct phases

I remember realizing this really early on because of how I played real-time strategy games like Red Alert. Hear me out...

My usual routine was to grind collecting resources and building up the "perfect" army. This part was never really fun for me. It was most of the playtime.

Then I'd take my amassed troops and wipe the map. This part was fun but lasted only a few minutes. It also meant my experience didn't feel very original after a few games.

After that, I tried to be a bit more free with my play-style. Played using riskier strategies, tried different approaches, etc. I can't say every attempt worked out or every time was more fun. But I'd like to think I had a fuller game experience.

I wish I could say I adopted that latter philosophy in life ever since then, but I'd be lying. I do try to stay aware of it and nudge myself in the right direction. But it's also a lot easier to just stay in the comfort zone.

At least for me, it wasn't until I started making self-reflection part of my routine that I started seeing how stagnant I had become and doing something about it. And yes, as I type that, I'm aware that sentence screams "productivity porn." Like most things, I think there's a balance to be struck. Yes, grow, but also live while you grow.

[chii]

The grind and building up of a perfect army (for the majority of the game), then wipe the map with it at the end, is only a strategy that works if you knew perfectly well what forces you'd face.

I reckon if you tried this with a competitive human player, you will almost certainly lose.

And i would imagine life is the same - if you laid out a plan and grind to get rich to enjoy it at the end, you are making the assumption that the world doesn't change under you in the mean time.

For some people, this worked, but i think increasingly, the world is changing faster and faster, and any plan that someone might make is going to crumble in the face of the "enemy".

Being adjustable on the fly, and changing plans and goals, as well as balance, is the key imho.

[the__alchemist]

If you tried this on a human in any RTS:

  - Enemy would scout your greedy boom
  - Enemy would attack while you've committed to your economy instead of military or defenses
  - You lose

[rowanG077]

Interesting it was completely the opposite for me. I loved getting resources and building the perfect army. Wiping the map always felt shallow afterwards.

[m463]

lol, I did the same thing - and with Red Alert.

I think I really just wanted/needed was a pleasant building experience like simcity, but with a little action and a definite end within a finite amount of time. When it got too easy I would add more (computer) opponents.

[dchuk]

I think the point is that if you aren't mindful and deliberate with your actions, you'll descend into behaving according to habits and desires instead of what is in the best interest of your future self.

Without being mindful, you'll just have another handful of chips instead of remembering you're trying to be not fat.

Without being mindful, you'll watch another Youtube video instead of doing something on your todo list.

Without being mindful, you'll jerk off instead of reading a book or interacting with another human being.

It's not that doing any of the above is inherently bad in isolation, it's that if you aren't mindful in the aggregate and just default to impulse, you'll find yourself drifting much farther from what you think you will eventually become than you otherwise realize.

We live in a world where distraction and dopamine hits are so accessible (sometimes even out of our control) vs even just 50 years ago, so we find ourselves needing to be more deliberate in our actions.

[s1artibartfast]

I think you made a false dichotomy between thinking of the future and mindless indulgence.

You can be mindful of who you are and what you want now.

A life of always suffering for tomorrow is arguably as bad as a life of mindless indulgence.

You can get to the end without ever enjoying it.

It is better to not want chips than always want chips and restrain yourself.

It is better to enjoy exercise than suffer through it.

[DiffEq]

I view life as a I do my farm. There is always work to do to make it produce; there are times of intense work and times where I enjoy just watching the chickens…not that I don’t enjoy the intense work too; but sometimes I don’t as well but it must be done. I am always looking to do things better and more efficiently…so over time the farm does produce more, it does get better, it is not the same farm as it was a year ago. The change is sometimes fast; sometimes slower but it is always there. I think the point here is to make the general direction of change for the better at a pace that is reasonable.

[lioeters]

Ah, this is so well said, thank you. It's true, life is about cultivating yourself, growing relationships, nurturing knowledge and skills over time, watering the garden, taking out the weeds, feeding the animals, planting trees.

And I suppose I agree with the posted article's title, that every action is an investment of energy into developing better selves, others, the surrounding environment as an interconnected living system.

[thebigjewbowski]

> I feel like some people who take this mindset see their lives as being two distinct phases… the building/growth phase where you grind and learn and work non stop, and then a later phase that comes after where you enjoy what you built.

I actually just had this realization when I was lifting weights.

Initially I just wanted to lose weight and I had this idea of where I’d be once I did. Then I got to my goal weight and that wasn’t it. Now if I stop lifting, exercising and eating healthily all of my progress will eventually be gone; it’s a life long process not just something to do for awhile until I reach some goal.

I think it’s something I should apply to my professional life as well but it can be scary to take your foot off of the gas. I’ve done it in the past for the wrong reasons and wound up regretting it.

[Teknoman117]

Yeah, I really had to accept the "this is forever" part of getting healthier. Sure, the calorie deficit will eventually be able to end (sort of), but the lifestyle changes that allowed the weight loss have to be forever. Eating better has to be forever. Or at least be the general case rather than something done occasionally.

I watched my grandfather decline dramatically over his last few years due to a lifelong neglect of his health and I've resolved myself to do everything in my power to try to avoid his fate.

After a decade of false starts, I really had to get to the point where I was doing it for me. Years ago would've been better, but today is better than next year. 60 pounds down in the last 9 months. Could've done more probably, but I really had to figure out a rhythm to it and learn to love it. Ironically, this time around is the first time I preserved enough to get to the point where I can recognize the positive effects. My mood is dramatically more positive after exercise, etc. I never believed I could get to that point.

[celim307]

“Strong opinions held weakly” apply here too. Work hard, but constantly check in with yourself and ask if your current goals still make sense and feel good.

I made a lot of ideals and goals when I was younger and didn’t know myself or the world, and it caused me to chase things that ultimately didn’t bring my happiness.

I’m much better now loving my harmless, wierd, silly bits, and working on improving the prickly bits that hurt others around me and myself, but I’m still learning what those all are and that’s ok. That’s growth.

[just_boost_it]

I was thinking something very similar the other day when someone came to me extolling stoicism as a route to personal improvement. People need to read a bit of Epicurus or something to level out. Sure grind when it's time to grind, but make sure you set aside time to make friends and enjoy your life. In the end, whether you enjoy yourself or spend your life grinding away, this one life is all we get. No amount of grinding will allow you to vote for a second life after this one.

[nicbou]

The people who believe in these two-phase mentality rarely end up retiring early. They don't know how to relax. If you derive meaning from work and the accumulation of wealth, what do you do after you reach your happy number?

[wiz21c]

... and do you feel anxious not knowing if you will reach that number ?

[nicbou]

I don't bet my twenties and thirties on reaching that number early. I'll get there eventually but I'm not in a hurry. I prefer living a balanced life now.

[antman]

Every decision you make feeds and strengthens some part of your neural network.

Using the "Thinking fast and slow analogy" book analogy these are my geeky definitions:

Fast (automatic, unconscious) thinking is always a vote towards what you are and slow thinking is 50% vote for what you are and 50% on what you are becoming. What you are becoming is a combination of what you want and what your environment pushes you to. Abuse or hedonism makes you working towards places where you better not be. Forming a habit is moving an action from slow thinking mode to fast thinking mode.

[jeremyeder]

OP here, thanks to everyone for all the comments on this post. They were interesting to read. I appreciate the positive comments and can also certainly understand why some are not so positive.

For some context ... the blog itself was scoped to a very small portion of what I intend to write as time goes on (probably won't be submitting those to HN as I agree in hindsight that it doesn't match the preferred content for HN readers).

Someone else also commented "Are there any votes you cast that you’re not proud of? What kind of person do those votes tell you that you wish to become?" Yes, I'll be writing that and expanding beyond work scope because as a family oriented person (which doesn't come across in the post, nor did I intend it to), I'm glad to work at a place that advocates for a healthy work-life balance.

Burn out is a very real thing, and I 100% agree with the "Life needs to be built and enjoyed together, through your whole life." that's spot on!

[Geee]

That's exactly what the title means, no? If you constantly just work, you don't become the person you want to be. You don't become the person who enjoys life. If you are in the spot that you're not spending time as the person you are, then you'll probably want to change, and framing every action as a vote is a pretty good way to think about it.

[wiz21c]

except that election results are not often what you were voting for...

:-)

[Fricken]

Life is about the journey, not the destination. However, it won't be much of a journey if you don't pick a good destination.

[pengaru]

Whether you like it or not, you always have a trajectory, and time serves as a relentlessly constant velocity progressing along that vector.

[jdgoesmarching]

This is just “everything happens for a reason” translated into hustlespeak. You are free to fret over every second not spent leveling up an attribute, but it’s weird to project this LinkedIn ideology as some sort of universal maxim.

[pengaru]

> This is just “everything happens for a reason” translated into hustlespeak.

What? That makes absolutely no sense.

It's a frank acknowledgement of the fact that nothing stays the same, including you. The decisions you make today affect your trajectory and where you'll be tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade, until death.

None of this assigns meaning, reason, or purpose to any of it.

[stjohnswarts]

It's one of those things to have you questioning everything you do of everyday. It's a bit much.

[ratg13]

There is always a difference between what you want to do with your time and what you actually end up doing with your time.

Some people that have a larger gap here, likely could benefit from more mindful decision making.

[datavirtue]

Yeah, it's called learning how to live.

[fatherzine]

The 7th day.

[aeternum]

By posting this, you are becoming a person that enjoys life and is unlikely to get burnt out.

[upupandup]

by posting on HN, you are becoming a person that spends time posting on HN

[frogpelt]

Your reaction is a somewhat natural push back against the prevalent idea of selling people on things they don't yet have.

But you probably need to temper your reaction. Surely you would expect someone to work on improving themselves. That's what education is. That's how people develop skills.

James Clear in Atomic Habits is definitely not just talking about productivity. He's talking about your health and fitness and your mental health too.

Also, why do you have become "someone else" to be a better version of yourself?

[cortesoft]

Yes, I agree with this. I think a good life is finding that balance; how much of yourself goes into production, how much into consumption. How much do your push yourself to be better, and how much do you accept and live with your flaws? How much do you invest for the future verse consume in the present? Too much either direction will lead to a bad life.