[kube-system]

Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.

[hardolaf]

I worked for a defense contractor that had a truly unlimited vacation policy as long as you were getting your work done. We actually would get formally reprimanded and put on a PIP for not using enough vacation. All benefits started day 1 including 4 months new parental leave (fully paid; STD following birth did not count against the 4 months), unlimited vacation (no questions asked and auto-approved for the first 30 days per year), unlimited sick leave (up to 5-days per incident after which you'd transition to STD up through 12 weeks then LTD at 100%, then 70% of pay until better or moved onto SSDI exceeding the benefit respectively), unlimited jury duty leave at 100% pay (one guy that I knew there spent 4 months on a jury for a complex civil trial), dedicated paid time off to vote in every election (local, state, or federal), and a whole heck of a lot more. Had I not gotten a much better offer from a HFT firm that fully offset the decrease in benefits, I probably would never have left the company because of how amazing the benefits were. I had taken 4 weeks off for my wedding + honeymoon before I quit and my manager was talking to me about how I should still schedule another 3-4 weeks off that fiscal year for vacations at other times.

[nebula8804]

I'm gonna need the name of this contractor. Hell i'd switch tech stacks for these kinds of benefits. Do they offer Remote? I make about 118k in NJ as an Angular+Python dev and what keeps me from leaving is the "unofficial" remote they offer me + the extremely relaxed working environment(no stress whatsoever). I'm not doing anything cutting edge but at my age (34 still living at home while saving money) I just don't feel like I want to be in any competitive environment anymore. Only worry I have is that I will be SOL once this dries up. I guess I gotta get on those "personal" projects/leetcode practice that I don't really feel like doing.

[hardolaf]

It was Harris Corporation but I heard the benefits got worse after the merger with L3.

[nebula8804]

Yuck. Everyone I have known who worked for L3 was a jerk who loved the smell of their own farts. They picked up all of the nastiest colleagues I had in engineering school. I have a very bad impression of this company. Don't they make the 1990s style "secure" phones that the government relies on?

[karamanolev]

> some actually respect it

I'm yet to see one or hear from a friend who works in one. I admit there might exist one somewhere, but by and large, they don't. Unlimited PTO = culture of overworking, at least for me. And small companies with unlimited PTO, 3-5 engineer teams (and some other staff, obviously) seem to be the worst offenders. The bigger the company, the higher the chance unlimited PTO might actually work.

That being said, I'd love if someone can teach me how to tell them apart.

[ketzo]

I used to work at Workday, who has an “unlimited PTO” policy, and they were fantastic about it.

A few months into the pandemic, my manager sent me a message saying that he was worried I wasn’t taking enough PTO, and suggested I do a 3- or 4-day weekend in the next couple of weeks, even if I wasn’t going anywhere. This happened to a few other coworkers, too.

It can be a trap, but it isn’t always. And this isn’t some little startup - 15k employees.

[karamanolev]

That's a positive thing to hear and thanks for sharing! What I'm worried is, if 90% of unlimited PTO policies are complete shams (number taken from my informed RNG), how do you tell them apart? You can't afford to start at 10 companies and remain in the 1 that has a good policy... On words, they are all about work-life-balance (they don't tell you the balance is 90% work). And I'm not talking about being ridiculously lazy, I'm talking about employers openly setting expectations that you work at least 5x10-11h as a software engineer and demanding that.

[kube-system]

It works as long as you have a culture where people don't abuse it. It's not workable if people think it's acceptable to disappear with some critical information only in their head and screw their coworkers. Document stuff. Set deadlines in advance, and expect people to meet them. Have a team that collaborates and is considerate to their peers. If people do this, nobody is counting how many days they're out.

I'd rather work at an unlimited PTO company with reasonable people than one with a generous allowance where people are always scheming to use it as a weapon.

[bdangubic]

Therein lies the problem… Define “abuse it.”? If there is such a thing than PTO should be limited to that ;) Dont say it is unlimited and then say that actually is limited…

[kube-system]

I did define it... in the rest of my comment.

If the workplace culture isn't such that it is clear what abuse of the policy is, then yeah, it's not going to work out. Expectations have to be clear.

[karamanolev]

I think the best way to define what abuse is, is give explicit numbers. Even something like "25 days/year free use PTO, 20 more days to be discussed with your manager" or whatever. I came up with that policy right now, I haven't seen it anywhere, but point is - setting expectations beforehand is much better than just saying "unlimited". For some, unlimited means "20 days if you're lucky", for others it's "up to 40 days we don't bat an eye, if your output is good otherwise". "Unlimited" doesn't convey that. I want to know before I start working. Please convey it.

[Sodman]

In the interview process, ask questions like "How many days off did you take last year?" or "How many days off in a year does an average team member take?". If the answer is <= 15, or they bristle at the very mention of the question, there's your answer!

As an anecdote, I've worked at a startup with unlimited PTO where the culture was that most folks were working 45-55 hour weeks regularly, but everyone took vacation whenever they felt they needed it. I averaged ~5 weeks of vacation per year taken during my tenure there. That was probably about par for the course with that team. As long as you're performing well while you are working, give enough advanced notice, and willing to be somewhat flexible (eg don't take 2 weeks vacation right before a big deadline with 2 days notice) - it can work out quite well for all parties.

[rlewkov]

The tech company I currently work for has unlimited PTO. I've never had an issue, even once, when I said I'm going to take XYZ days off and have gotten pushback. It probably happens but I haven't seen it.

[karamanolev]

You never mention if you took 15-20-25 days per year or let's say 40. I'd say that if you're taking up to 25 days per year, then there's no point in unlimited PTO - that's such a standard number that it's better to just put it there. If you took more than 30, then I'd love to hear specific numbers. Saying that you took 30-40 days in a year and didn't get pushback means a lot more in terms of a good "unlimited PTO policy", assuming you remain otherwise very productive.

[kube-system]

I take a "standard" amount of PTO but it still makes sense to have unlimited PTO because:

1. Some people take more and some people take less, and that's fine. Not everyone has the same life circumstances.

2. If you set an allotment, you should track it. Why waste time counting calendar days against a PTO budget if nobody cares? If you start tracking towards a limit that people don't actually care about, then you create opportunities for people to be treated unfairly, or you demonstrate that your organizations rules aren't actually worth following.

[gsibble]

Yeah, I do have to say every company I've worked for with "unlimited PTO" really means "no PTO and if you take any you will be shamed for it and possibly fired."

[aorloff]

The only place I've heard of that went to unlimited that sounded serious about it was a non-profit (non-tech) where the execs said: we going to unlimited PTO, but we are going to enforce PTO minimums if you don't take PTO (you will be taking time off each year, either you will schedule it or the company will). They combined the move with creating some company-wide long weekends that augment already long weekends (eg. add a Friday or Tuesday to the July 4th holiday to make it a 4-day closure).

[pixelp33pr]

This comment is intesting. I've experienced unlimited PTO in a couple of big companies and it was amazing. There was never any push back on taking 'reasonable' time off (1-2 weeks at a time) and being able to take off without counting hours was fantastic

[bradlys]

Correct. I’ve had unlimited PTO at a few jobs. All of them I’ve taken 5+ weeks off outside of company holidays every year. This is usually better than the 20 days standard you get from some FAANG.

[locutous]

I was at a company with such a policy and I was fired for taking too much time off due to a family emergency.

[teeray]

I don’t do unlimited PTO unless there’s a mandatory minimum time off.