[h2odragon]

Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins.

I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games. The latency makes me ugh. Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting.

[wolrah]

> Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins.

If it's a manual transmission or an ancient automatic, sure, but manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade or so and every automatic since the mid 90s has an electronic gear selector of some variety.

Somehow the world keeps working just fine. The biggest problem that's come up with them has been when manufacturers decide to screw with the physical interface and make it more likely to inadvertently miss Park, like the Chrysler design that killed Anton Yelchin.

> I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games.

It's less complicated than a force feedback joystick or even a lot of modern gamepads.

> The latency makes me ugh.

The latency is coming from the transmission, not the shifter.

> Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting.

Again, it has been this way for literally decades. My 1993 Crown Vic with an AODE transmission had a shift lever based on the computer interpreting ranges of resistance from a potentiometer. The lever was literally a joystick with notches. And as the name suggests, that was a classic AOD transmission with the mechanical valvebody replaced with solenoids and an IBM PC grade processor.

[asciimike]

2021 Tacoma Manual owner here (one of the reasons I got it). Gladiators and Broncos are also available with a manual!

[waiseristy]

For the Tacoma, you made a good decision. The auto in that thing is the single worst programmed automatic transmission I have ever encountered. But that doesn't just automatically apply to all OEM's. There are plenty of autos that are great & responsive. Fords 10 speeds are quite good.

And you only got rid of 1 of the dozens of computerized components in your drive train. Your engine, transfer case, rear differential, and hubs are all computerized

[brk]

What about your steering, braking, and throttle controls?

[asciimike]

Throttle is drive by wire, brakes are hydraulic (as is the clutch), and steering is hydraulic.

That said, I'm not railing against computers in the car, I'm mostly saying I like manually shifting my gears.

[bonestamp2]

Throttle is definitely computerized.

[analog31]

Amusingly, I discovered that my Toyota Sienna had electronic transmission control when I was downshifting on a mountain descent, and absent-mindedly threw it into reverse. I'm still alive.

[stefan_]

I think the first part of this blog series had the gear selector sending it's state every 30ms - so you are looking at some averaged ~15ms of latency just from this thing.

[wolrah]

> I think the first part of this blog series had the gear selector sending it's state every 30ms - so you are looking at some averaged ~15ms of latency just from this thing.

For reference purposes at the standard gaming benchmark of 60 FPS a single frame is 16.666_ ms, so you're looking at the equivalent of a frame or two of delay.

That could be critical for a CRT-era fighting game that requires frame-perfect inputs, but as a controller for a traditional automatic transmission it doesn't matter in the slightest.

[stefan_]

Yes, exactly, that is terrible latency if you want to use it as an input device.

[wolrah]

> Yes, exactly, that is terrible latency if you want to use it as an input device.

Eh, yes and no. It's a lot worse than it could be, that's for sure, but there are a lot of major name game controllers that were sold for years and perform worse, yet a lot of players would never notice unless they did a side-by-side comparison against a good one.

For the use case, where the hardware it's controlling has an inherent latency measured in the many dozens to hundreds of milliseconds depending on which model and mode, it doesn't really matter. Likewise for the author's intended use case as a mode selector for an EV. A faster update rate is in all likelihood possible in the hardware, but when you're sharing a bus measured in kilobits per second with other potentially critical messages it seems reasonable to rate limit.

[throwaway0a5e]

I'm very familiar with EEC-IV era Fords. If you want to have this debate I am very much down.

Your 1993 Crown Vic may as well be a 1980s toaster over compared to the 2010+ cars being discussed. The only digital electronics are in the ECU and for the display on the radio. There is a huge difference between a 90s Ford style lever position sensor and the BMW stuff. If the computer doesn't do the right gear for what you want you just move it until it does. The BMW will spit error messages at you.

[wolrah]

> There is a huge difference between a 90s Ford style lever position sensor and the BMW stuff. If the computer doesn't do the right gear for what you want you just move it until it does. The BMW will spit error messages at you.

You have missed the point. Yes, in that one particular failure mode if the calibration is off on the shift lever itself you can usually fiddle with it to at least end up in a gear. The point was that the transmission doesn't work unless the computer thinks everything's OK. It's not like a mechanical automatic where you can climb under the car and fiddle some levers to force it in to gear. The computer controls everything, just like in the BMW and just like basically every other automatic transmission from the late '80s/early '90s and beyond.

The fact that the BMW shift lever separates the part deciding what gear you've selected from the part actually controlling the gearbox and connects the two over CAN doesn't seem like a significant difference to me from a functionality or reliability standpoint.

The Ford is more or less a classic "game port" joystick where the BMW is the equivalent of a USB HID joystick.

[thescriptkiddie]

> manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade

That might be true of pickup trucks, but commercial trucks are virtually all manual.

[wolrah]

> That might be true of pickup trucks, but commercial trucks are virtually all manual.

I don't have much experience with the big trucks, but my understanding is that most fleets are leaning towards automatic these days because it's easier to get drivers, they can enforce shifting policies for fuel economy, and there's less a bad/aggressive driver can screw up. I'd totally believe owner ops still stick with three pedals for the most part though.

In the medium size truck world it's been ages since I've seen a stick, everything has an Allison with that same janky '80s seven-segment LED control panel.

[windowsrookie]

Not anymore. I drove Semi trucks and most fleets are going all automatic these days. There are of course some who still prefer a manual, But I would bet commercial trucks will be 90%+ automatics in 10 years.

[h2odragon]

Mine is the last manual v8 Dodge dakota sold, possibly the last made. 230k miles and still have a sliver of the original clutch.

[themitigating]

The latency for doing what? Shifting from reverse to drive? The ZF transmissions in BMWs are very fast shifting even though they are torque converters and there are paddle shifters on the wheel.

[Gordonjcp]

ZF 4HP22 in my older (4.0 litre) Range Rover, 4HP24 in my newer one with the 4.6 engine. Actually they're both the same age to within weeks, I just got the 4.6 eight years after the 4.0, but anyway - it takes about a quarter of a second to change up or down if you manually prod the gearstick coming up to some bends. It's definitely faster than the R380 manual gearboxes fitted to Discos, Defenders and manual P38s, which needs a fair bit of time in neutral to settle out before you select the next gear.

This is '80s technology, mind you, with a fairly simple computer grafted on to bring it up to the white heat of the mid-'90s.

[timc3]

The BMW ZF is much faster. They are even using it in their M cars.

[mike_pol]

I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. The latency you mention is really not there. Admittedly I could not service it if it broke but aren’t cars consumables now?

[Cthulhu_]

> aren’t cars consumables now?

Maybe if you're in the earning high-5 figures a year bracket in SF, but for regular people, a car is likely the most or second most expensive thing they own (second to a home). New cars is something for dual-earners and rich folk, for us regular people - and I am a high income earner - new cars, even on finance, is just not an option.

(I'm currently driving a used 2009 Ford Focus, <200K Km on the dial)

[davchana]

& to add, some of us rent home, so the car is literally anything where we have some equity (& rest the bank owns).

[krallja]

> high-5 figures a year bracket in SF

Lower class?

[Nullabillity]

In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?!

> I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind.

Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.

[CraigJPerry]

>> A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.

Which cars have those today or in the time-frame of the F-series BMWs from TFA?

Every fiat/chrysler gearbox is sloppy gooey junk thing, even their performance models have horrific manual gear shifts.

I'll cut to the chase instead of listing Ford, Peugeot, etc. etc.

The Porsche Cayman 982 manual shift feels awesome to use, it's a delight but that only opens up a new can of worms, the gear ratios are farrr too long (emissions targets i suppose), utterly ruining the experience. The PDK is the better choice (and it even has shorter ratios to boot!).

[foobarian]

I'm not a car nerd by far, and I never drove a manual shift before my Focus ST, but I am completely in love with it. I'm heartbroken that Ford stopped manufacturing those models.

Edit:

Reflecting more on what I like about it. I saw a number of articles or videos, like that 80s Porsche, where the shifter is wiggly or won't go into gear because of long linkages, or falls out of gear. The Ford shifter is nothing like it. My favorite thing about it is that there seems to be (maybe) some torque-induced flex between the gearbox and shifter that makes it naturally slide and "fall" into the correct next gear; I absolutely love this feeling. You just push the stick and it falls from 2nd to 3rd, for example. But if you're slowing down it feels like it's harder to put into 3rd but more easy to push it back up into 1st. And then the way the reverse gear is protected with a hefty spring-loaded ring is very nice. Finally, overall the shifter works smoothly, never gets stuck, seems to "know" the gear I want to go into, never falls out of gear... just lovely :-)

[tmh88j]

> The Ford shifter is nothing like it. My favorite thing about it is that there seems to be (maybe) some torque-induced flex between the gearbox and shifter that makes it naturally slide and "fall" into the correct next gear

I also have an ST. I highly suggest replacing the shifter with an aftermarket short throw shifter or the shifter bracket. I think you'll like it even more. I've owned several cars with manual transmissions, and one of my biggest complaints about the ST was the stock shifter. It doesn't struggle to get into gear, but it felt light, soft and mushy compared to my other cars. I replaced mine with a short throw from Steeda and it helped a lot, but still lacks the solid bolt-action rifle feeling I was used to.

The ST is a killer deal with serious performance for its price, but if you want a taste for what else is affordable out there and a step up try out a car with a Tremec TR6060 transmission[1]. They are one of the best manual transmissions on the market today and can take a beating. You should easily be able to find one on Turo if you live near any major city.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_TR-6060_transmission#Ap...

[replygirl]

try splitting the difference with like a miata or a brz

[ry4nolson]

the BMW F-series M3/4 of the same time-frame have a manual gear shift option.

[gambiting]

>>Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.

Yeah, no thanks. A good dual clutch automatic is my choice when it comes to actually driving in a sprited way.

But you know what? To each their own.

[Gordonjcp]

> Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.

I learned to drive in manuals (because they're more common in the UK). I currently own two automatics and drive a variety of manuals, automatics and EVs that are kind of inherently "automatic".

I don't see any difference in "driving experience" between manual and automatic. What do *you* think the difference is?

[jjtheblunt]

Not what you were thinking, I guess, but I push-started my manual Saab and Honda many times, could my manual Mercedes but never needed to, which you can't do with an automatic.

[Gordonjcp]

You can if you get them moving fast enough, but it's terrible for the gearbox.

[jjtheblunt]

that would require some fast running while holding the door and steering wheel!

[bonestamp2]

> In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?

I don't think consumable is the right word, but I assume they meant in the sense that many cars are leased, so the drive never really owns a car -- they just "consume" cars as they move from lease to lease.

[speedgoose]

Does your car use electronic injection or a carburettor?

[h2odragon]

Injection, so yes; there's still more fly by wire than i like.

[londons_explore]

A bit of gear shift latency just makes it all the more realistic!