[Grustaf]

I don't know the answer, it's an honest question.

Obviously having children changes your life completely, it is a huge burden and you have to "sacrifice" a lot. But almost nobody regrets it. Probably because we are hardwired to have children. The joy outweighs any sacrifices.

I don't know anyone that wishes they hadn't let their children be born, no matter how harsh their circumstances.

[falcolas]

> But almost nobody regrets it.

It's worth noting how taboo it is to admit that you hate your children, and thus how vastly under-reported this attitude ends up being.

> I don't know anyone that wishes they hadn't let their children be born, no matter how harsh their circumstances.

I, in contrast, know several children who wish they hadn't been forced to grow up in abject poverty with an absentee parent who has no time or energy for them because of how much they have to work.

Perhaps it's selfishness on the parent's part.

[Grustaf]

> It's worth noting how taboo it is to admit that you hate your children, and thus how vastly under-reported this attitude ends up being.

Then how do you know anyone feels that way? Where do you get your information?

> wish they hadn't been forced to grow up in abject poverty

That's a different question altogether. We all wish we had been born in better circumstances, but that doesn't mean we resent being alive.

The solution to children growing up in abject poverty is not abortion, it's social safety nets. Nobody should have to live in abject poverty in a rich country.

[falcolas]

> Then how do you know anyone feels that way? Where do you get your information?

Google for "I hate my children".

> [social safety nets]

One solution to children growing up in poverty is a safety net - a solution that is strongly advocated against as being "socialist" by our current government. i.e. It ain't happening in our lifetime.

Since that solution is not currently feasible, not having children if you can't afford them (i.e. it will put you into poverty, either from normal costs or advanced costs if the child is known to have a birth defect) is the next best solution. There are four well known methods for this, abstinence, contraception, abortion, and adoption.

Abstinence is not a realistic solution, this has been shown to be the case through the centuries.

Reliable contraception does not exist (or is effectively unavailable: see the crap women have to go through to get their tubes tied). It's also next up on some of the SC justices' hitlist.

That leaves abortion and adoption. The first is much more affordable and less likely to kill the woman than the second. And that doesn't count the already overloaded foster care system and adoption rosters we're subjecting the children to.

[Grustaf]

So the Democratic party are strongly advocating against safety nets to prevent children from growing up in abject poverty? Because that would be "socialist"?

Regardless of abortion laws, this would seem like a basic requirement for any civilised society.

I'm not sure why you would say that reliable contraception doesn't exist. Condoms are extremely effective, and cost nothing.

When it comes to adoption, it is my understanding that there is a huge demand for adopted children, outstripping supply by an order of magnitude. Are you saying this is not the case?

[falcolas]

This isn't a partisan issue. Neither Democrats nor Republicans (the politicians, not necessarily the constituents) want safety nets. They have different reasons, but the end result is that neither side is willing to make it a reality.

> Condoms are extremely effective

Condoms have an 85% success rate† in the real world (98% if used perfectly, but humans are rarely perfect, especially when... emotionally compromised). That means a pregnancy a year is absolutely within reason.

> it is my understanding that there is a huge demand for adopted children

A case where research is easy, and worth doing. But here's what I found Google:

"Of the more than 440,000 children in foster care in the United States, there are over 123,000 kids available for adoption right now. According to the Dave Thomas Foundation for Adoption, children in foster care can expect to wait an average of three years to be adopted and the average age of a foster care child is 8.5 years old."

"... roughly 20,000 children “age out” of foster care each year. This means they are now legally adults without ever finding a family through adoption."

That "huge demand" is for families who will only take babies, not fostered children.

Historically, 2% of families in the US will adopt, meaning that even if every previously aborted fetus was carried to term and put up for adoption as a baby, there still wouldn't be enough families.

EDIT: The cost to give birth, without complications, is between $5 and $15k. That's just giving birth. And the parent doesn't receive the adoption fees; that cost is on them. For the adoptive parents, a private adoption (how you get a baby) is in the $25 to $50k range††.

† https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom...

†† https://adoptionnetwork.com/adoptive-parents/how-to-adopt/ad...

[hellojesus]

> If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they’re 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren’t perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective — that means about 15 out of 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year.

Why don't we consider the combined probability of condoms + birth control (heck, even + vasectomy, etc.)? It would seem a lot more reasonable to me to take that as a more appropriate measure of real-world risk.

[Grustaf]

> This isn't a partisan issue

It was you that said "our current government". I would have thought the Democratic party was in favour of a working welfare system, at least for small children.

You adoption numbers are not relevant, we are not talking about children, we are talking about newborns. Since there are apparently 2 million American couples wanting to adopt right now, and only 18000 being adopted each year, I'd say the demand is very strong.

I'm not sure what cost has to do with it, surely you are not arguing that abortion should be a way to save money by not having to give birth?

And I'm sure a lot of adoptive parents would be more than happy to bear the cost of childbirth. In a civilised country essential healthcare is of course socialised, but we are talking about the US here.

[diydsp]

> Condoms are extremely effective, and cost nothing.

Condoms are only 98% effective even when used correctly[1]. Women need access to abortion.

[1] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/contraception/male-condoms/

[hellojesus]

There is risk with everything in life. If someone is having sex, regardless of condom use, birth control use, vasectomy, etc., they are accepting the risk of an unplanned pregnancy.

Why is it that we push for the killing of unborn persons instead of taking responsibility for the consequences of one's actions?

[Grustaf]

That's per year, not per instance. So it's really quite high.

[taylodl]

But almost nobody regrets it.

Yeah, no.

Gen X-er here - born before Roe v Wade. My own mother told me she'd have aborted me had it been legal. She felt trapped into getting married to someone she ultimately didn't love. I witnessed several domestic violence issues growing up. The "good news" is I wasn't alone - I knew other kids that had similar home issues. It was way more widespread than people let on.

This whole narrative of I had children unexpectedly at 18 and it was a miracle that changed my life - yeah it happens, but it's the rare case. That's not typically how that ball rolls.

The reality is it really sucks to be an unwanted child. Let them live, my ass. It's more like let them suffer.

[Grustaf]

You are not actually saying that she regretted having you, only that at the time she would have killed you if she could. It's obviously a horrible thing to say, to even feel, but it's different from what we are discussing.

[taylodl]

Let me make it clear - she regretted having me. Those are the cold hard facts. If she could have aborted me and had another child later when she was prepared to have that child then she may have loved that child. As it is, there's a very dark downside to forcing unwanted children into this world that isn't being discussed.

[Grustaf]

> forcing unwanted children into this world

This turn of phrase, which I've seen used often, is bizarre and demonic. It implies that the default for children is to be killed.

[taylodl]

No. Forcing children to live in Hell is demonic. Unwanted children live a Hellish existence. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Grustaf]

The issue is that these children live “in hell”, not that they are alive at all. The solution to potential future suffering is not to kill people.

And needless to say, you can’t project your experience on every one.