[TulliusCicero]

> Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe

You're once again excluding any calculations of Russia using the money to run around overthrowing democracies. "It's greatly beneficial if you ignore all the mass murder."

The whole reason why they're now cancelling NS2 is because of this. Germany likes cheap energy, sure, but they're less than enthused about the money paying for that cheap energy going into executing and raping civilians in Ukraine.

[alaricus]

The world doesn't revolve around "America vs Russia". There are lots of other things going on.

And if you are looking for a mass murderer, is there a bigger mass murderer than USA after 20 years of mass murder in the Middle East?

[systemvoltage]

That would be the Middle East itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State

To fight ISIS, it is mostly a joint effort of US + NATO + Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%....

> The United States accounts for the vast majority of airstrikes (75–80%), with the remainder conducted by Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Jordan, Belgium, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and the United Kingdom.

[alaricus]

This made me laugh.

Isis was a direct consequence of American invasion of Iraq. You can't do what America did in Fallujah and not expect some kind of blowback.

[systemvoltage]

> Since at latest 2004, a significant goal of the group has been the foundation of a Sunni Islamic state. Specifically, ISIL has sought to establish itself as a caliphate, an Islamic state led by a group of religious authorities under a supreme leader – the caliph – who is believed to be the successor to Prophet Muhammad.

Furthermore, it is worth studying the Arab Spring and what the underlying causes were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring#Causes

[alaricus]

Doesn't change the fact that America spent the last 20 years on a mass-murder spree in the Middle East.

[systemvoltage]

If you want to call wars mass murders, that’s your call. I support complete defeat of ISIS/ISIL to the last member. Seems like you have a rhetorical axe to grind, mass murders sounds like a dog whistle to the people with anti-US sentiments. Not an objective argument.

[rat87]

Yes it doesn't revolve around America vs Russia

You have to consider the EU vs Russia.

It's not in EU's or Germany's intrest to keep trading with Russia

[Shadonototra]

It is in EU's interest to keep trading with Russia

It is not in US's interest to let EU keep trading with Russia

USA wants the EU to be their giant marketplace where they can sell their culture and products

USA also wants to weaken Russia so they can finally contain China North, East, West and South

Seems like you were sleeping the past century, blurry days ahead!

[astrange]

> It is in EU's interest to keep trading with Russia

Russia's been blatantly assassinating people across Europe for years and would invade Poland in a second for personal pleasure even if it caused an economic loss for them again.

They haven't evolved past Mongol horde methods of living with their neighbors and are relying on everyone else always taking the "rational" result of appeasing them rather than fighting back. The correct response in this iterated game is to punish them and let their more productive people immigrate to you.

[Shadonototra]

the US has been blatantly assassinating people across the Middle East and across the entire American continent

They haven't evolved past Far West horde methods of living with their neighbors, they are killing each other with firearms and countless death in schools

They let their people die, and their house burn because they have no money

They impose trade sanction to whoever doesn't want to knee and show their submission

They'll also impose their military base in your country [1]

Look at the evolution of Russia past 3 decades, and look how it has improved significantly, same can be said with China, they are barely in debt, what can be said about the USA? during that timeline

Ohhhh, yeah, the USA can trade with Saudi Arabia, no bid deal there ;)

But yeah they are good at seducing people, so the pill is easier to penetrate, i will give that to you

[1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-05-16/Japanese-protest-U-S-m...

[astrange]

> the US has been blatantly assassinating people across the Middle East and across the entire American continent

Have you noticed that literally nobody cares about this? Even the people we killed don’t care. Even Greenwald, who started this line of argument, doesn’t really care - he just hates Obama, he dropped it the second the next guy did it even more. (And Biden has completely stopped doing it.) Even you don’t care, you’re just doing whataboutism.

That’s because the ME countries aren’t actually allies just because they’re next to each other. More importantly, we don’t lie about it when asked, and we don’t use wacky spy methods like poison and radioactive weapons.

[alaricus]

America spent 20 years on a mass-murder spree in the Middle East, and we ended up having to take care of millions of refugees as a result.

America is not a friend to Europe. We have no business joining America in a struggle against Russia.

[PKop]

It is though, they get something like 40% of their gas from Russia, and 30% of oil imports.

It is immensely in the interest of Germany to have good relations and continued trade with Russia.

[rat87]

No it's in Germanys interest to f*ck Russia up as much as they can financially (and in terms of weapon shipments ( in the hope it ends the war sooner. And diversify their energy.

Germany's intrest is for Ukraine to win as quick as possible

Before the war Germany at least had a reasonable sounding argument (peace through trade) but it's been proven totally wrong they need to admit they were wrong and move on

[alaricus]

Ukraine can't win.

[qsort]

By most reasonable metrics they are winning right now, so if I remember my modal logic correctly, this statement can't be too accurate.

[PKop]

>Ukraine to win as quick as possible

It is not possible for Ukraine to win, they are slowly but methodically getting their country destroyed. What does Germany lighting money on fire funding this destruction do for German interests?

How does this solve their energy needs? It doesn't, it along with sanctions makes energy more expensive. Where they used to be able to buy all energy in Euro's, now some of these purchases now require buying Rubles. Thus Ruble exchange rate is up and Russia's trade surplus is growing.

Germany's alliance with NATO expansion and US meddling in Ukraine along with following US lead to cancel Nord Stream 2 is crushing their economy. Self-sanctioning out of Russian cheap energy supplies will further destroy their industrial output.

>hope it ends the war sooner

hope. That's all they have. It will only impoverish them sooner. Diversification of energy is a worthy goal, but it insane to do this now by first cutting off their primary cheap energy supply. First, continue to buy as much cheap energy as Russia will sell them (instead of selling it to the East). Then, cancel ESG green insanity and pursue oil/gas investments and nuclear expansion wherever possible. But at the end of the day if your neighbor wants to have good trade relations with you, you shouldn't throw that away in service to your "ally" across the ocean.

[phatfish]

Ah yes, the word soup defense of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, do tell us more!

[rat87]

> It is not possible for Ukraine to win

This is backwards, its not possible for Russia to win since Russia is having much more trouble with getting recruits and training them then Ukraine is and can't easily manufacture replacements for lost hardware while equivalents are being provided to Ukraine. The longer the war goes the worse it goes for Russia. Yes Ukraine faces death and destruction but the mood in Ukraine is a determination to keep fighting and Russia is incapable of inflicting enough damage to change that.

Russia was the one meddling in Ukraine, not the US, to Russia's detriment. They are the ones who have set Ukraine against them with their actions. Their actions have led to Finland and Sweden to apply to join NATO.

Based on Russia's actions its clear that Nord Stream 2 should never have been built

>But at the end of the day if your neighbor wants to have good trade relations with you, you shouldn't throw that away in service to your "ally" across the ocean.

Russia is not willing to have good trade relations with Germany. Decades of German politicians have bet on buying Russia's good or at least tolerable behavior through economic interdependence.

Russia made all of them into fools and proved their critics right.

This isn't about America. This is about the EU, about Poland and Czech Republic and Lithuania and Finland. And most of all this is about Germany. Russia is the one who threw it away and proved that Germany's interest was not to buy from Russia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/02/germany-depend... (Germany has been forced to admit it was a terrible mistake to become so dependent on Russian oil and gas. So why did it happen?)

> In recent weeks even Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German president, a totemic figure of the Social Democrats and greatest German advocate of the trade “bridge” between east and west, has recanted. He admits he misread Russia’s intentions as he pursued the construction of a new undersea gas pipeline. “My adherence to Nord Stream 2 was clearly a mistake,” he told German media in April. “We held on to bridges that Russia no longer believed in, and that our partners warned us about.” This is an extraordinary admission for a man who acted as chief of staff to Gerhard Schröder, the Social Democratic chancellor from 1998 to 2005 and thereafter a lavishly rewarded, and much reviled, lobbyist for Vladimir Putin. Steinmeier was also foreign minister under Chancellor Merkel, and a great evangelist for Wandel durch Handel, the concept that trade and dialogue can bring about social and political change.

[w7]

Maybe in the short term, but it's become clear from this conflict that Russia uses its economic exports as political leverage-- as does any nation.

The problem comes from what they've decided to use their exports as leverage for.

Economic interests don't have to perfectly align for one nation's relationship and favor to be preferable over another.

Economic interests don't exist in a space devoid of cultural, ideological, or emotional ones.

Reaching the conclusion that relationships should be normalized is only truly ideal if you're viewing it: A) in an economic only vacuum and B) from a lens of maximizing Russia's resource based leverage, because that's all they have.

[Paradigma11]

Russia has been a hostile actor to germany and the rest of the EU for more than a decade. Russia financially supports radical political movements with the sole intention to harm/destroy the EU.

Russia has regularly ppl killed on european soil. Sometimes using chemical weapons that cause collateral damage.

Russia has an extensive propaganda and disinformation network running in europe.

Russia massively buys political influence by shopping for ex politicians, this way corrupting the political process.

Russia has a history of military conflicts with its neighbours, see occupation of Trnsnrista in moldowa, abchasia and south ossetia in georgia, the annihilation of chechnia, all the stuff in ukraine and helping belarusian dictator Lukachenko suppressing his people.

Looking at the levels of gas storage in europe by gazprom it is very obvious that its behaviour was not driven by good faith financial interests but as a weapon of the kremlin against europe.

And lets not forget the shooting down of MH17 where, not only did the russians deny any responsibility, they even clogged the public discourse with disinformation campaigns of tons of ridiculous and contradictory theories.

So, no it is not immensely in the interest of Germany to have good relations and continued trade with Russia as long as this regime is in power. Flood ukraine with heavy weapons till the russians are driven out. Then put up a new iron curtain till something substantial changes for the better.

[alaricus]

EU and Russia are practially neighbours. Our interest is in peace and trade, not war.