[ristlane]

It's entirely possible to have rewarding & meaningful interactions with narcissistic people. Here's my process.

First, realize you're not so much better. Don't expect too much.

Next, don't insult them. Be aware of power games; don't get confused. Be straightforward.

Generally avoid putting yourself in a situation where you need something from them. If they offer a favor, accept it (if you want) and say "thank you".

Finally, don't try to fix them. Be simple. Offer them your time, and not much else.

You'd be surprised at how many narcissists are relieved and happy to meet someone who behaves in this way.

[fellowniusmonk]

Right, don't enter partner agreements with them, don't develop any kind of attachment to them, don't let them close, don't let them get too familiar with you (familiarity breeds their contempt) etc.

One foot out the door and don't let them close to anything that you would be upset with them breaking (they never apologize or take responsibility so just factor in how much bad they can do to you) and you'll be fine, they can even be an asset to the community and volunteer in exchange for kudos in the right circumstances.

[fristechill]

>they can even be an asset to the community and volunteer in exchange for kudos in the right circumstances

Yes, and a relatively harmless source of narcissistic supply would seem to be in the performing arts.

[nradov]

Harvey Weinstein?

[zeptonix]

Yeah, the problem w/ this theory is that they're still narcissists. You can do all the above and perhaps you'll succeed in convincing yourself you're having a "rewarding & meaningful interaction" ... but the "reward" and "meaning" for the narcissist is in what interacting with you does (and can be made to do) for them, especially and even ideally at the expense of you. It actually sounds a bit like the point of this post is to establish that you yourself are special for being able to get along with a narcissist -- which is exactly what they'd like you to be thinking and just sets you up even more so to be taken advantage of by them. For whatever it's worth.

[benlivengood]

Some narcissists understand the idea of mutually beneficial exchanges. If they do, you can trade with them. If they don't and are always angling for the advantage ("winning" discussions or negotiations) or pretend that all transactions are zero sum then go no-contact with them as much as possible.

[asveikau]

I feel like there is a danger of going through life sizing up people as narcissists and being selective about who you reveal yourself to. I've definitely been guilty of that myself. It can create unnecessary stress and anxiety. Further, it strikes me as potentially encouraging use of the narcissist's tactics themselves, allegedly abhorrent as they are; one can just as easily re-brand your "no contact" as "silent treatment" and accuse you of being manipulative.

All that is to say ... Do what you want in who you choose to associate with, and it's ok to not let some people get too close. But try to avoid doing so in a judgemental, stigmatizing, labelling, or aggressive way. Keep these things lightly and open room for the idea that it's more of a simple misunderstanding rather than existential conflict. And don't stress about it too much.

[benlivengood]

I usually give people two or three chances to cooperate normally, and also will listen if they initiate a change in themselves later on that seems trustworthy.

I never know for sure whether someone suffers from narcissistic personality disorder or other dark triad traits so I rarely label them; but I can gauge the effect of their actions on me and that's the ultimate metric that matters. Even people with good intentions may produce hurtful and counterproductive actions and be unwilling or unable to learn and grow; there's no need to label or stigmatize them but I will, as you say, choose who I associate with to better my own life. It's helpful to remember that other adults are not owed time and attention; they are responsible for finding their own support networks to meet their needs in a mutually agreeable way. Obviously in a workplace no-contact isn't possible entirely but greyrocking works there.

It's just helpful to recognize the narcissistic traits and manipulative tactics that people sometimes use and respond appropriately to the tactics by enforcing boundaries, communicating my limits, refusing to get emotionally entangled, etc. Pretty much what standard therapy teaches.

[4oo4]

I agree with all this, except for offering them your time. If you're not careful a narcissist will waste all your time and attention for self-validation (or perhaps other malicious purposes, depending on the type of narcissist). At that point you're just feeding the beast and reinforcing their expectation that they can demand limitless time and attention from people for their own vain needs. They will teach you to distrust yourself to suit their own inner narrative if they think you are challenging it.

Time and attention granted to narcissists needs to be watched very closely. You're totally right that they need to be approached with empathy, and you don't need to completely ignore them or treat them as pariahs. However it's OK to disengage with them when you're being exploited for their self-validation.

Unfortunately, I've really recently come to the realization that a longtime friend of mine has narcissistic traits, I didn't really realize it until another mutual friend started to get frustrated in the same way that I had been from time to time. Then I realized that my intuition was right, and how much the friendship had turned toxic because of how much it caused me to doubt myself, in service of their ego.

Since I had been giving them so much time and attention while trying to be a good friend, I realized that they were making me doubt myself so they never had to reflect on themselves or have their way of thinking challenged. They're not a bad person and I think it comes down to insecurities, but the past couple weeks that I'm actively tuning them out when things cease to be a conversation, and rather them just talking at me with no way to get a word in edgewise (sometimes for up to an hour at a time!), telling me the exact same story they just told me yesterday, or even a few hours ago, just to hear themself talk.

Since I started creating boundaries like that I have a lot more energy and focus for myself since I realized that it had convinced me to care about propping up their self-image rather than taking care of my own needs.

[IG_Semmelweiss]

You are right on the money.

Good for you.

[heavyset_go]

Or you can save yourself the headache and just not get involved at all with them.

[zeptonix]

It's actually a fascinating experience being in the presence of a narcissist for a while. It truly is a different kernel/OS that their mind is running. But exactly -- everyone in such a situation does and will reach this conclusion eventually.

[heavyset_go]

I don't find it fascinating, they're actually quite simplistic, you'll find that they see the world through the eyes of a selfish toddler, where they are perfect, everything is about them and anything they don't like is everyone else's fault. They'll act like the fact that their actions may have consequences that they don't like is somehow the gravest injustice in the world. It's both incredibly boring and exhausting at the same time.

[ncpa-cpl]

This is what I would do too. Keep them as far away as possible.

[heavyset_go]

Learned this lesson the hard way. The only way to win at this game is to not play at all.

[ed_elliott_asc]

Don’t share anything at all with them, they will use it against you no matter how trivial.

[ncpa-cpl]

Also try to be as neutral and boring as possible with them.

[ristlane]

I like to be challenging and hopeful.

[twelve40]

I appreciate the tips (really) but the gist of it sounds awfully close to "just treat them like a baby and pamper them". Could work if you _really_ need this person, but doesn't sound... healthy?

[__s]

No. The point is to have clear boundaries. In fact, "treat them like a baby and pamper them" is quite the opposite of the advice

Don't offer to help them. If they ask for help, only agree if not expecting anything in return. Or be clear about what you'll want in return. Everyone is different: they may react negatively to rejection, which is it's own problem, others may not hold a grudge

Be straightforward: call them out on their behavior, preferably privately to avoid power games. Let them know the boundaries which if crossed you'll disengage from them over

[IG_Semmelweiss]

I think that is more part of your personal growth.

People wont change. Some never grow up. Some never get past baby stage.

Its up to you to accept how they are, or step aside and forge your own path

[pseudosavant]

It isn't healthy. It takes some serious honesty with yourself to decide who you really need.

[ed_elliott_asc]

and pay them lots of attention to keep them happy.

[mise_en_place]

Dealing with narcissist is relatively straightforward - it's the dark triad types you need to watch out for. They will try to ruin your life just for the fun/sport of it.

[Melatonic]

I would not say this is the end all be all of interacting with narcissists but I agree that it is entirely possible to have meaningful interactions with them.

I would probably go farther and say that generally we should probably apply some of this type of logic to all the relationships in our lives - expectations should always be realistically tailored to the individual within reason.

[fudged71]

Even if this is your preferred way of dealing with them, I don't think it's good for general advice. In my experience narcissists tend to be manipulative, and that any boundaries you put forward are offensive.

[Teever]

It's entirely possible to dance the tango on a minefield too.

I question the cost benefit analysis of such a course of action however.

Given two otherwise identical people, one narcissist and one not, which one would you pick for an interaction?

Which one would you pick in a job interview?

Which one would you pick to date?

And that's the gist of it, if I don't have to, why would I ever interact with a narcissist again?

To take a page from their book -- What's in it for me?

[notahacker]

> And that's the gist of it, if I don't have to, why would I ever interact with a narcissist again?

> To take a page from their book -- What's in it for me?

Not taking a page from their book (or being perceived to by others) is a pretty good reason actually... dividing people into categories based on initial pop-psychology analysis you've conducted of their visible traits to figure out whether they are deserving of further interactions with you is a pretty narcissistic trait itself. As is discounting all scenarios where anyone other than you has the power to act: a lot most people's regular interactions in life are with people others have chosen, and sometimes they actually have ability to help or even [independently of assumptions about their personality] actually deserve it themselves

People can be vain, volatile driven entirely by compliments and human beings... human beings that are helpful or funny even... sometimes more so because of their pathological need to impress. And even they're just boring boastful bullshitters with a sideline in snide remarks, if they're your friends friends and you're trying to exclude them, you're the one whose behaviour is going to be seen as more self-centred and toxic to the group.

Doesn't mean you have to date them, or trust them, and perfectly reasonable to avoid people whose extreme behaviour is dragging others down with them altogether (but lots of narcissists don't go that far, and lots of extremely destructive behaviour isn't narcissism). But there's plenty of value to learning to peacefully coexist with narcissists, unless you want to be the one perceieved as playing power games and dragging others down.

[YATA2]

This is the exact way one should deal with performative social justice leftists at work.