[senjin]

I know exactly why I do it and it feels impossible to stop. I scroll endlessly to avoid the pain of everything else in life. Doing work, doing chores, doing hobbies, talking to anyone, making decisions even about projects I'm excited to work on, it all causes a small hit of emotional pain. I don't really know where this pain comes from either. Maybe some childhood trauma that I can't even remember? I don't know.

The 2nd part that cements this into what feels like an unbreakable habit is that I feel like I'm constantly learning. It's partly true, I'm constantly learning about things that have even benefited me and my team at work, but in general it's low quality garbage I'm learning about or just the surface of a good/useful topic.

Like the author I have recognized this and done research on it and have no idea how to fix it. I remember finding the word akrasia [1] years ago that has stuck with me since but no help actually getting past it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrasia

[scaramanga]

I was just about to type "same reason I waste so much money on Heroin" but you pretty much beat me to it :)

That hit of pain is just a small feeling of loss for part of your childhood self, when you were all potential and didn't have to make any real choices. With each choice made, with each position we commit to, we expend some amount of our potential and turn it to something actual. The reward for this is obvious, the development of an adult self, a self we have chosen. The cost is less obvious, what if the person that you become cannot possibly live up to the ideal image of self you had as a child? What if you don't like the person that you become/are becoming? In fact, what if you can't even decide whether to like them or not because you're unsure of what your own values are?

The whole process of adulting can induce grief for the loss of an ideal, or anxiety over ambivalence towards one's self. Whether this happens or not probably is, at least partly, a result of what happened to you in childhood. Another part of it is probably genetic predisposition.

Anyway, the mild form of this is just procrastination, you avoid the anxiety of dealing with choices by doing something to sooth "that small hit of pain", but the price of that is wasting time and letting problems mount, which leads to worse anxiety, which leads to more procrastination. In more severe cases, when soothing behaviours no longer work, you get in to substance abuse and there are a whole of other ills.

Hope that helps in some way.

[jordanpg]

I believe the sociologists of the future are going to look back at this era and cite the manifest lack of meaning in human life as source of the ennui that is the subject of this thread.

For a long time, religion filled this void, but for almost everyone, it no longer does. I don't even think most people who hold themselves out as religious really find any significant meaning there -- not doubting their sincerity, only the compatibility of those beliefs with modern secular realities.

It is simply true that it is a simple matter to learn enough about what we know about the universe to know, somewhere in the back of your mind, consciously or unconsciously, that none of this means anything. And the rest follows. It is garden-variety Camus' Sisyphus.

I believe this results in a void in our primate brains that is inadequately filled by anything yet available. We are in a transitory period where we are looking for true secular meaning to replace what we evolved with.

[anonydsfsfs]

People have been saying the same thing for over a century. Take the following passage from Fernando Pessoa's Book of Disquiet, written in the 1920s:

> I belong to a generation that inherited disbelief in the Christian faith and created in itself a disbelief in all other faiths. Our fathers still had the believing impulse, which they transferred from Christianity to other forms of illusion. Some were champions of social equality, others were wholly enamoured of beauty, still others had faith in science and its achievements, and there were some who became even more Christian, resorting to various Easts and Wests in search of new religious forms to entertain their otherwise hollow consciousness of merely living.

> We lost all of this. We were born with none of these consolations. Each civilization follows the particular path of a religion that represents it; turning to other religions, it loses the one it had, and ultimately loses them all.

> We lost the one, and all the others with it.

> And so we were left, each man to himself, in the desolation of feeling ourselves live. A ship may seem to be an object whose purpose is to sail, but no, its purpose is to reach a port. We found ourselves sailing without any idea of what port we were supposed to reach. Thus we reproduced a painful version of the argonauts’ adventurous precept:* living doesn’t matter, only sailing does.

> Without illusions, we live by dreaming, which is the illusion of those who can’t have illusions. Living off our inner selves has diminished us, for the complete man is the one who doesn’t know himself. Without faith, we have no hope, and without hope we have no real life. Having no idea of the future, we likewise have no idea of today, because today, for the man of action, is nothing but a prologue to the future. The energy to fight was stillborn in us, for we were born without the fighting spirit.

[rchaud]

> For a long time, religion filled this void, but for almost everyone, it no longer does.

Did religion actually fill this void? Or did enough people simply go through life not voicing any of their troubles for fear of exclusion or even institutionalization in a religious and highly superstitious society that didn't understand mental health?

Religion didn't prevent alcoholism, out of wedlock pregnancies or domestic violence. It did however force families to take brutal measures to keep their missteps a secret from the rest of society.

[JackFr]

No. I think you misunderstand.

When you tell people there is nothing transcendent, that life is indeed meaningless - sometimes they believe you.

[paulryanrogers]

Isn't it best to tell people life is meaningless if that's where the evidence leads? After a few decades pursuing 'god' and sacrificing to ascend I think teaching false hope (with or without strings attached) is worse.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

Telling anyone that life is meaningless is utterly different from telling them that you believe that there is no external agent or agency that provides a meaning for our lives. Asserting that life is meaningless is completely different from asserting that its meaning is personal and must be discovered by each of us.

[JackFr]

If it’s meaningless what does it matter?

Think about it.

[scaramanga]

Spoiler alert.

It means the statement that "it's meaningless" is, in itself, meaningless. That liberates you to construct any system of meaning that you like. But that freedom can also be quite frightening and anxiety inducing.

If that is the case, then you have a couple of choices (broadly speaking):

1. Soothe the anxiety away with opium, doom scrolling, religion, career, keto, multi-level marketing, or whatever. After all you are probably struggling to survive and assert ones own existence, against a backdrop of other fears which are much more realistic than abstract concerns about meaning (eg. losing one's job, income, looks, etc).

2. Rely on a social fabric of emotionally supportive family, friends, significant relations in a context of peace, freedom, financial and job security, your own physical fitness, and other stabilising, fear minimizing, forces which free up your emotional resources to let you focus on not just finding your own meaning but to create a collective meaning in connection with others who are, themselves, meaningful to you.

To be clear, I am not dissing, opium, religion, careers, or even keto per se :) I think those things are all fine if enjoyed in the proper context.

[makeitdouble]

If you have no strong opinions on the meaning of your life , strong religions would come and greedily take any ground you were willing to concede. If you really had no idea what you want to do you might as well end up in a covent or an abbey.

The presence of that extreme also allowed not being religious to be itself a strong voluntary choice.

It doesn’t prevent alcoholism or other human problems, just force filled the “why am I here, what am I going” gap whenever people found nothing else to fill it with.

I think we are less religious overall for very good reasons, now we should pay more attention to the gap that is less empty and what would come to fill it.

[scaramanga]

They [religions] also took over politics, and made it so that you could go to prison for not attending church every sunday (at least they did in England). As they said at the time: no biship? then no king...

Religion can only reasonably fill the gap in meaning if it isn't forcefully shoved into said gap. If shoved there, it's just another foreign body that miserably fails to heal anything as any number of other quack solutions: alcohol, social media, impulse purchasing, etc. In other words, it's just another opiate, but one which for a long time, was forced on people at literal gunpoint.

Not dissing religion per se, I just think that when we say "we used to have religion, and psychological health was fine", then we're looking at it with insanely rose-tinted glasses... actually, veering off in to total delusion?

But I am kind of guessing what historical periods we're talking about. Maybe we mean in prehistory, like the mesolithic? Because there's a lot less evidence about that so you have space to suppose that it was all very lovely, there were few tribes, they didn't have to violently compete, and internally they were all emotionally supportive environments in which a rich tapestry of mystical beliefs provided members with a deep sense of meaning and connection. But I would still be pretty skeptical about that. Not saying it didn't happen. But how widely and for how long?

[benlivengood]

To put a fine point on it, the problem is not that life is meaningless but that it has significant meaning and value and also death exists. Death is the antithesis of most human values and we're so far powerless to deflect it on a long-term basis, while religion gave hope or belief of circumventing or ameliorating death.

I scoff at all of the "accept it as part of the natural order" rationalizations; death is the enemy and my goal is to push it as far toward the heat death as possible. That final end will be a defeat, but much less of a tragedy than the ~120 years we get now. If meaning and memory can exist for 10^100 years instead then that's a prize worth fighting for.

I think all the proof anyone needs of this is the joy of children; death is unlikely and far from them and so they have nearly boundless ability to enjoy life and its meaning.

[themacguffinman]

Pretty sure the "fine point" on it is just your personal spin on the matter. The people who believe life is meaningless frequently demonstrate the sincerity of their beliefs by killing themselves early. A common adjacent belief is anti-natalism, the belief that their own parents and most other people should not have children because it's morally a net negative to introduce new agents of suffering. Nothing about "the joy of children" is as universal as you present it as.

[noduerme]

Be that as it may, I was at peace with my existentialist void before the modern internet came along. I had companionship in smokey cafes with other people who saw the same lack of meaning in the universe, but were engaged in the making and building of things. All I see in this new paradigm is the desire of everyone to tear everything down, to destroy.

Existentialism leaves room for humans to give meaning to their own lives, through acts of creation and bonhomie. It also leaves room for the Holocaust, for evil.

Humans don't necessarily need a new religion. We need to learn to recognize evil when we see it without relying on dogma.

[boppo1]

>to know, somewhere in the back of your mind, consciously or unconsciously, that none of this means anything.

But perhaps that is incorrect.

[bowsamic]

That’s why the only thing that really helped me was Buddhism, which directly tackles these questions and understandings

[noduerme]

Being a person who enjoys learning makes it a much nastier addiction. I just wrote this in my post.

>> even about projects I'm excited to work on

This. Let me lay a comparison here to alcoholism. One thing that happens when you're an alcoholic is you plan your time around when you're going to drink. Suppose there's something you really want to do after work, but you're going to get into it for 4 hours and not go to a bar. You get off work, and suddenly it feels like a really heavy lift, when it was something you actually wanted to do. So you make excuses that you'll do it on the weekend, but then you don't do it, and eventually it starts to feel impossible. Time gets chopped up and you never get the long-term focus that comes with settling in and losing yourself in a project that takes hours of concentration. You forget how to concentrate.

All of these things are true for internet addiction as well.

[drpotato]

Mate, if you haven’t already, go talk with a therapist. I’ve struggled with avoidance my entire adult life – avoiding awkwardness, pain, risk, “bad”emotions, difficult conversations, conflict – and talking with a professional has really helped me.

[rchaud]

Much like making new friends past university, therapists are a crapshoot. Some simply aren't a good fit or have poor sofa-side manner or fail to develop a sense of trust.

If the therapy is part of an employer funded benefit, you also only get a limited number of sessions, and only with the employer-approved provider.

[eckza]

Plug for Lacanian psychotherapy.

Lacanians are focused, disciplined, and smart. There aren't many of them, either.

Dig around, read a little about Jacques Lacan; if it piques your interest, give it a shot.

[spazmoth]

Have you seen a Lacanian analyst yourself? If so—what are the sessions like?

[westoncb]

Interesting. Though I've got very little interest in Lacan's work itself, I could see this being a pretty good filter for finding smart/disciplined therapists who are able to address more... abstract concerns (then again, maybe it's better for some of us to be forced out of abstract territory for therapy).

[bluefirebrand]

Also, your employer funded therapist will likely have a specific mandate to basically help you get back to work, meaning no longterm solutions or help, only bandaids.

[chrisdave]

Maybe I'm lucky, I work for $LARGE_CORP_WITH_GOOD_BENEFITS and Aetna covers a non-tiny number of independent mental health practices with a small copay per session. Are there many companies with therapists on the payroll? I can't imagine feeling comfortable in that setting.

[mypalmike]

Do you know of examples where this was the case? I've never heard of therapists having any such mandates.

[kortilla]

That’s not how that works. The employers don’t directly employ therapists.

[mrmuagi]

Any tips on what type of therapist (psychologist, therapist, counsellor, etc.) and/or treatment you found effective? Sounds like talk therapy -- but did you go through other stuff as well?

[philosopher1234]

I recommend psychoanalysis. It’s the only thing I tried that helped, and it helped a ton.

AMA if you have questions.

[grae_QED]

Talk to a licensed therapist with a PhD or PsyD that specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). There are masters level therapist, however most of them don't have as much training as people with PhD's or PsyD's (it can be hit or miss with masters level clinicians). But really it's about finding someone that you can connect with.

CBT focuses on challenging behavior that goes against your goals and building an arsenal of cognitive tools to maintain behavior that helps you achieve your goals.

It's what most people with these kinds of problems need.

[PKop]

Lift weights, run, get more sunlight/vitamin D, and go on walks in nature.

[JackFr]

From a philosophical perspective that Wikipedia article covers a lot. I truly want to do A, but I do B instead. How is that possible?

The Wikipedia article offers a couple of classical and modern takes on the problem but I'd offer one more. That we misunderstand our own intentions. When I say “I’d like learn to speak Italian” that’s not what I mean at all. What I mean is “I’d like to be able to speak Italian.” and I haven’t even considered the work involved.

[rootusrootus]

I love hearing things like this. It's not like it tells me something I didn't already know, but just saying it in a new way that gives me hope I may eventually find a strategy that works better.

In my case it's carrying too much weight around. Even though I know objectively how much better it feels to be lighter, how much better I feel all around. I want to be thinner, and I want that even at the exact moment I'm eating something while I'm not actually hungry. I tell myself "You ought not to be doing this." as I actually put it in my mouth.

So I end up asking myself repeatedly WTF, why am I sabotaging myself even in spite of conscious recognition that this is exactly what I am doing.

Because as you say, I know I want to be lighter. I didn't say anything about wanting to eat less. You're a genius, thanks for giving me a new way to think about this. Even if it doesn't work.

Off to the fridge... (I kid, I kid... or do I)

[boppo1]

Another thing to try if you haven't: ask yourself if you will still be alive after not doing the thing you feel compelled to do. Focus at that moment on the version of yourself in 60 seconds or up to an hour who didn't [do compulsive thing] and the fact that they're still alive. The fact that it is physically possible to not [do compulsive thing].

I find that often helps me. It's being in the habit of reminding myself I have more than one choice when dopamine cravings would otherwise cause me to forget.

[Metalbourne]

It sounds like food provides you stimulus that you are craving. You can substitute that with fat burner supplements. There's a misconception that they alone are supposed to help you, but their direct thermogenic effects aren't what makes them effective. The thing that makes them effective (and any other caffeine-like supplement) is that they spike your adrenaline which takes your appetite away, essentially distracting you from eating.

[nostromo95]

“We are I know not how double within ourselves, so that we do not believe what we believe, and we cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn.” -Montaigne

[mise_en_place]

I’d recommend you get your testosterone levels checked. One of the symptoms of low total testosterone is depression in males.

When I was checked I was on the lower end at 200 ng/dl and had the symptoms you describe. My doctor prescribed me first stanolone (DHT) and then switched me to regular testosterone. All I can say is it has changed my life. It may not be applicable to your situation but it might help.

[amelius]

Gotta love internet diagnoses. Probably well-intended, but you don't even know if they are male or female :)

[mise_en_place]

As I had mentioned, it may not be applicable to their situation. But there is no doubt in my mind that testosterone mediates longevity in some fashion.

The question is, at what level is that? And does it vary individually? Too much and you’re at risk for adverse cardiovascular events. Too little and your bones will snap like twigs and your muscles will waste away.

[scaramanga]

Actually, the symptoms described are more to do with low estrogen (well, estradiol). And in males, estrogen is made by the action of the aromatase enzyme on free testosterone So tl;dr maybe OP is just menopausal? :))))

[mrmuagi]

Not to pew pew your suggestion, but apparently sleep, diet, and, exercise effect test levels as well, so more things to check at and rule out before committing to lifelong trt. Although I keep reading testomonials where people say they don't mind jabbing or applying creams.

Also test levels vary drastically during the day in a two peak fashion, when you get tested can affect results in a misleading fashion.

[scaramanga]

Also genetic sensitivity to testosterone can effect test levels. So you really need a good doctor who is able to look honestly at your symptoms and who isn't running a testosterone mill which is just a modern day equivalent of snake oil (except more dangerous, since test is actually biologically active haha)

[tonguez]

maybe everyone in north korea or 18th century france is also low T. it’s probably a chemical imbalance

[hipjiveguy]

thank you for your suggestion. I think talking to your doctor to see if it's reasonable, is a great idea. Much appreciated!

[_piyush]

I sometimes feel that it's because I'm not hanging out with the right kind of people. People with whom if I hang out I will be fun and they will be fun and I will be myself. But then I think when was the last time I was comfortably myself with someone. It was always either professional, or an acquaintance type friend, or a hiking group, or guitarist. Everywhere I'm a persona and not me and on internet I'm me and it's not bad. Don't know, something simpler perhaps.

[qiskit]

> I know exactly why I do it and it feels impossible to stop.

The mind commands the body and it obeys. The mind commands itself and meets resistance.

[danielmarkbruce]

The 2nd part is especially bad, lots of people (I'm an offender) justify bs reading with "learning".

[geoduck14]

Oh. You just described like 95% on my HN activity

[dalmo3]

I'm on the same boat, but, without trying to rationalise it, I think exposure is a real thing.

HN is mostly entertainment for me, but just absorbing tidbits of information from people I believe are much better than me in my field is extremely useful. It's not much different than passively attending a conference.

[geoduck14]

Hey pal. There are a lot of people giving you advice about how big of a deal this is. Here's my take: that all sounds pretty normal.

Should you take care of it? Probably

Should you drop what you are doing and schedule a bunch of Dr Apts? Probably not

Any who... if it turns out to be a big deal, hit me up, cause I should probably do something, too ;)