[OrvalWintermute]

> Please be very careful with the trolling

This is not trolling. Maybe you shouldn't be so flippant about making accusations like that.

> In a past life I had contact with teams returning from Kossovo having handled mass graves there, identifying corpses, getting information to investigators, these ones then talking with families, piecing through what exactly happened. Some of the affected persons, still alive 30 years on, with only the memory of their raped 10 years old daughter, are at it and anyone associated with the deeds, even if the perpetrators have long ago been peeled, are still after associates, even if only just in propaganda associates.

I too, did "peace enforcement" in the Balkans as a uniformed member of the US military in a NATO unit.

Who were the allies of NATO in executing the peace enforcement? Russians. How quickly people forget this, in the "Rah Rah Rah EvilRussianz" media blitz.

However, you are comparing genocidal conflicts in the Balkans, with a war that is essentially a defensive move by the Russians to prevent encroachment into their sphere of influence & sphere of control.

Wars are brutal, horrible things.

NATO should not be in the business of fomenting revolutions, "Color Revolutions", Regional destabilization, or encroaching on regional powers turf where we have no clear national interest. And no, we hate Putin is not a National Interest. NATO has been supporting the Western Ukrainians in Kiev, and assisting the coup, in attacking the Eastern Ukrainians for a number of years now. We should not be in that business.

We would not tolerate Mexico or Canada becoming a Chinese military base, any more than we did missiles in Cuba [1]

[1] https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/cuban-missile...

[polotics]

Countries only have "sphere of influence and control" as much as they are able to influence and control. The invasion demonstrated both lack of influence, and lack of control. No NATO missiles were being deployed in Kharkiv that I know, so this was not Cuba. Clearly now my Kharkiv friends want nothing but... If we're lucky we survive the escalation, I call it 50/50 at this point, got the iodine.

[OrvalWintermute]

> No NATO missiles were being deployed in Kharkiv that I know, so this was not Cuba

You must not be counting the thousands of TOW, Stinger, Javelin, and Switchblade Drone/Missiles that NATO is sending to Ukraine.

[polotics]

Sorry I meant proper missiles, like in Cuba, eg. R-12 R-14 (SS-4, SS-5)

[OrvalWintermute]

TOW, Stinger, Javelin, and Switchblade Drone/Missiles are all capable of taking out large commercial airplanes.

TOW 2 are specifically designed to take out buildings in the Bunker Buster variants. Simultaneous release of multiple TOW2s could be used to defeat large industrial buildings, or skyscrapers.

Slovakia has sent an S300 to Ukraine, and those are pretty hefty sized missiles too.

Are you drawing the limit on short range tactical missiles, intermediate range tactical missiles, Cruise Missiles, ICBMs, or Nuclear ICBMs, since we have already established NATO is supplying a number of missile types to Eastern Ukraine?

[polotics]

Super interesting discussion, so sorry I cannot really continue it much!

You mentionned Cuba, so I mentionned Cuba, false equivalence yada yada...

Still, so far the Buk that fools used to down the Malaysia MH17 is the only actual case we're talking about: misguided killings inside the aforementioned "sphere of control", more like sphere of complete corrupt incompetence if you ask me.

All the rest you list is the result of the unprovoked aggression.

So far only Israeli airlines have installed flare decoy systems on commercial transport aircrafts, there are technical issues with downing one of those with what you list though. Let us both hope your theories do not have to get tested.

[OrvalWintermute]

> Still, so far the Buk that fools used to down the Malaysia MH17 is the only actual case we're talking about: misguided killings inside the aforementioned "sphere of control", more like sphere of complete corrupt incompetence if you ask me.

This is what western media would have you believe.

However, the Western Ukrainians have been attacking the Eastern Ukrainians for half a decade now, bombing civilians much of the time.

Similar to what happened with the Buk, is the new Kramatorsk situation.

Western Media reports it as Russians killing Ukrainians https://nypost.com/2022/04/10/liz-cheney-says-ukraine-train-...

Russian Media reports it as Western Ukrainians killing Eastern Ukrainians https://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/151053-kramatorsk_ra...

However, we know that Russians claim to be only using Iskandar missiles these days. Iskandars are more powerful, more accurate, and significantly longer range.

An Iskandar is distinguishable via the tail fins https://www.defencetalk.com/military/photos/iskander.46333/f...

Tochka-U missiles don't have tail fins in the same position, as they are more centrally located https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPz-Oy6WYAQ07Ko?format=jpg&name=...

Russians fired a Tochka-U at an exercise in '22, and there is alleged film of a Russian unit having a Tochka-U. Whereas, the Tochka-U is the only Ukrainian missile of the type, as they do not have access to Iskandars

What landed at the Kramatorsk train station was clearly a Tochka-U.

So, I guess it is in the realm of possibility that it was either side.