[Throwaway8373]

One of my greatest problems is knowing what is right and wrong when courting for a mate. The rules are changing so rapidly that what I learned in sex-ed is outdated, and not even talking about what my parents could teach me.

The public discourse on sex is also mostly negative and discouraging. And this is what we meditate on a daily basis -- when you hear more about women feeling the need to wear, well weapons, when going out than you hear them wanting to be courted, well then I'd rather go and drink a bear and play some billiard with my mates.

I have recently started reading the works of John Gray (the one with Venus and Mars) and David Deida. Men that provide a somewhat coherent narrative and definitely provide material better to mediate on than the mass media.

Does anyone have some recommendation on literature supporting men courting women?

[PaulHoule]

I have been studying the psychology of love, relationships, attraction, seduction, etc. since last summer. Something I've read over and over again is that that Stendhal's book "On Love" is one of the very few worth reading

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/53720/53720-h/53720-h.htm

I read it and agree.

[hef19898]

Treat them with respect, eye contact, don't make about sex and generally don't be a dick. Usually works in all social circumstances.

[Throwaway8373]

It is easy only to talk in abstract terms. Don't be a dick -- what does it mean? Nobody knows, unless they do. Some well intended people ended up in very bad sitatuations while always thinking they were not dicks.

[spywaregorilla]

Be kind, listen, and demonstrate that you're listening.

[Throwaway8373]

This is still very cheap :) Be kind in the sense of the bible? Well, then you'd have the have read, or at least be educated, in the bible.

If it was just so simple as to be a good listener. Then I think a lot more of the classic "nerds" would have hit it of hard with the ladies ;)

[spywaregorilla]

Nerds are, imo, stereotypically terrible listeners.

It's pretty difficult to fail to classify kind behavior imo, barring people with exceptionally poor empathy skills

[ben_w]

Most people familiar with the phrase “good Samaritan” or “going the extra mile” won’t demonstrate such behaviour.

Instead, although “nice” almost certainly has some culturally specific Shibboleths, I would say the basic test is where someone is on the selfish-empathetic scale, and further to empathic is a good thing in a partner.

[bradlys]

> Treat them with respect, eye contact, don't make about sex and generally don't be a dick. Usually works in all social circumstances.

This is generally a great way to make friends. This is not how you court a partner. People will tell you about exceptional circumstances but they're just that - exceptional circumstances.

[zozbot234]

> This is generally a great way to make friends. This is not how you court a partner.

Evidence? Many friendships have a way of turning into relationships, because it's so easy to show off things to your friend that make you attractive and desirable as a partner. It even happens without people intending it!

[bradlys]

All of the people I know were never friends before they got together. Friendship marriages and relationships exist but they’re exceptionally uncommon. Thus why I said they’re exceptional.

The stats back this up. You might be living in a world of survivorship/confirmation bias. You’re only acknowledging the ones that worked and not all the ones where the guy/gal never had any advances accepted. I know many women in my own personal life who seem to think no one was attracted to them until I ask them, “how many men asked you out?” They then realized there were plenty of men who were attracted to them - just none that they wanted…

[zozbot234]

> All of the people I know were never friends before they got together.

So they all got together/started to date as complete strangers? Even if they were loose acquaintances for some time, that's plenty enough for the whole "get to know each other" dynamic to get going. 'Dating culture' is an anomaly, people were never intended to court each other like that.

[bradlys]

> So they all got together/started to date as complete strangers?

Yes or as loose acquaintances (they would never call each other friends or anything of the sort - just that they knew of their partner but that's about it). Not everyone was like random bumping into people off the street but almost all of them were not that far off from that.

I know dozens and dozens of relationships and none of them were friends before they got together. After all - they all needed to find each other physically attractive. If they didn't - it was never going to work. That is one thing that is remarkably common among all of them too - they all distinctly find their partner when they met them and now as physically attractive. There is no bridging that gap and no amount of "power of friendship" will fill that hole.

[jdrc]

of course everyone should be respectful of each other but why is talking about sexual intentions disrespectful?

[karmakurtisaani]

I've been out of the game for so long that maybe I'm completely out of touch, but if I was to re-enter the market for some reason, I'd approach this more as a challenge to get to know people and make friends rather than a quick way to get to rub genitals together.

That would basically lead to ignoring anyone expecting to be courted, but I don't think I'd lose much in that.

Following stupid dating game rules is stupid.

[Throwaway8373]

I am not entirely sure what this is a response to. Had I written Neil Strauss and the PUA movement, it would have seemed merited?

[karmakurtisaani]

To me the original comment came off as frustrated and possibly anxious about the "rules" of dating and I tried to respond to that. Maybe i missed the mark.

[swat535]

Why is seeking dating advice for men is frowned upon ?

Women do it all the time and quickly learn the intricacies of dating at a young age. Friendship and courtship are two different beasts and I bet women would like to be able to go on great dates with men who know have at least done a minimum of research in this area.

Sure, there are many snake oil dating "gurus" out there but I think many men could genuinely benefit from _some_ form of this.

[error_code99]

> Women do it all the time and quickly learn the intricacies of dating at a young age. Friendship and courtship are two different beasts and I bet women would like to be able to go on great dates with men who know have at least done a minimum of research in this area.

Women also have those intricacies thrust upon them, and often at a young age.

Most of the reasonably attractive girls I've known, as friends or more than friends, have been getting creeped on since they were like 12. I can think of at least one girl who got pregnant in 8th grade.

For women it's more of a survival strategy, while for dudes it's more of a hunting strategy.

> Sure, there are many snake oil dating "gurus" out there but I think many men could genuinely benefit from _some_ form of this.

In theory I'm okay with this, dudes could use a lesson or two, but in practice as you said there are a lot of snake oil types, and the culture that comes with it is often toxic as fuck. I used to bartend in college and a lil bit after and I saw some shady behavior come out of what were clearly PUA bros. Plus I don't want any well spoken, put together, respectful competition.

[staticman2]

You learned how to court in sex ed? I find that surprising.

A feel like in my experience the one thing they don't teach in school is social skills.

[beepbooptheory]

Its doesn't have to completely be a challenge or game like that. Or, if it is, you will need to read an entire body of literature for each separate person you want to get to know. When it comes to romantic relationships, the difference between every single person is on a universal magnitude, there is no way you can generally prepare. There is not a ground to stand on with these things unfortunately, there is just the predilections and desires that were instilled in you as a child, and those of every other person in the world. We are all 10 billion air-gapped black boxes of desire. Don't try to hard, just listen and be patient.

[Throwaway8373]

It is definitely easy to go down the road of relativazation.

* On reading: For most people we need better role models than our parents. For sexuality this is probably even ore true. * Every person is not so different. It would appear that sexual dreams are in variation of 10 different "universal" ones. * Studying the underlying dynamics is not about trying hard, indeed it is the contrary. You probably don't even know why the comment "Don't try to hard, just listen and be patient." is merited? If you read you will ;)

You would probably be one of these people who find it natural to talk with women, court them, etc. Congratulations. It is like a heiress telling her poor friends not to study hard to get a job -- just get money from your parents!

[beepbooptheory]

Ha! Fair enough I guess. You're conceptions about people are pretty alien to me, but they are yours and I can only hope you find your way, fill the glass you were given in life.

All the books I have read could only demonstrate love, or try to articulate it, not outline a techne for it. I think in these matters music can be more instructive perhaps?

Either way, I still firmly believe that you cannot encounter each woman you meet as some token of the grand category "Woman," we are all just people, and our gender is defined by society, but love shouldn't be.

Remember with all things related to human passion and desire, the thing you should fear the most is actually getting what you want. The best you can hope for is to be surprised by people, to be understood by them, to be transformed by them.

EDIT: here is a book for you, its pretty good

https://www.amazon.com/Desire-Love-Lauren-Berlant/dp/0615686...

If anything, in your schema, it would make sense to read books on the subject that are written by women.