Ask HN: Should I give my employer all my medical records?

[brogrammer2018]

I have been a software developer in an large organization for more than a decade. I have ADHD and see’s a psychiatrist every 3 weeks. Boss is now demanding access for to all my health records or said he will fire me. He has also locked my Active Directory account (he says temporary) and deactivated my building pass until I sign the document for HR to obtain all my medical records.

I have till Monday (less than a week) to sign the document.

I am located in Australia.

Should I sign the document so my employer has access to all my medical records and all the psychiatrist's notes on me?

TL;DR ADHD Software Developer. Employer demands access to all information in my medical records.

Letter I am forced to sign to keep my job is below:

Link: https://imgur.com/a/Qpvw9M6

[hericium]

I don't know Australian law but in some parts of the world this sounds like a sweet future settlement. Lawyer up ASAP - before Monday, before they do anything. Seek support from a local professional to know how exactly to handle this situation in your favor.

To answer the question: I wouldn't ever do it. I have ADHD, there is nothing embarrassing in my med records but I would not trust any unrelated company (employer, client) to handle and erase this data safely. It's private and absolutely not intended for them.

If I may ask, what happened prior to the request of your employer? Did they found otherwise illicit drugs on you and require this documentation as a proof that you are allowed to possess it?

[refurb]

You must be American. One of the few places where a “sweet future settlement” is the most common outcome.

For many other places it’s fines for the employer, potential back pay and a settlement of a few tens of thousands (severance).

[ericfrazier]

Yeah, it's pretty great being American.

[plasma]

Absolutely not, that’s quite invasive and inappropriate.

You should consider seeking employment legal advice so you can have expert help navigate this with you.

You should call someone from https://www.fwc.gov.au/resources/where-get-legal-help from the “Legal help from other organisations” section.

I’m based in Australia too.

[hammyhavoc]

Seconding this.

[throwaway_au_1]

I am also a software developer in Australia (NSW). I was 'headhunted' (in the loose sense) for a role and they booked me in for a "pre-employment medical check".

I assumed it would be something like: medical professional is briefed on my typical duties; medical professional assesses my abilities to perform these duties; medical professional then makes a recommendation to the employer. However on arriving and being presented the T&Cs and pre-check questionnaires, it became clear that the exercise was actually one of me declaring any and all medical information I could, with the T&Cs requiring that I consent to all of this information being provided to the employer.

I phoned my contact at the employer and said that this was ridiculous, and that none of the information I was asked to provide was relevant to the role: "it's just company policy for all employees", "we have a solid privacy policy".

They said that they had another health provider who was more 'lax' about what they asked. I contacted the provider and got a hold of their equivalent T&Cs and questionnaire, and it was way worse. Example questions: "Are you happy with your current weight?", "Has your weight changed in the past 5 years?", "In terms of noise, have you ever been exposed to (chainsawing|scuba diving|panel beating)?", "Are you pregnant or do you think you could be?". There were also questions about health conditions of family etc.

Ultimately I told them I wasn't interested in the organisation whilever they required me to unnecessarily disclose personal medical information. That said, I recognise I am very fortunate to be in a financial position to 'die on that hill', but I wish enough of us felt able to stand up to this bullshit so that none of us would have to.

[me_me_me]

"All of our workers here at ACME corp were happy about annual anal probing to ensure they are all fit to work here, you should feel privileged to be able refuse ACME anal probing."

Thats some grim future we are heading with this. And that software dev field, one of most competitive fields for finding personnel. As soft dev you are in position of power and yet people put up with this stupid shit.

Good on you for telling them to fuck off.

It sounds like its quite common in Australia, but why?

[irvingprime]

No employer has ever given me the feeling that my software dev skills put me in a position of power. Quite the opposite. Every place I have ever worked at has acted as if

1) My skills are unimportant (except when they want overtime. Then, no noe else could possibly do the wonderful job I can!); 2) I am easily replaced (maybe by much cheaper contractors) and 3) My salary requirements are ridiculous. Only the top executives are worth that kind of money!

When I turn down an offer or even an interview over something ridiculous (What do you mean I need to sign an NDA just to be interviewed? Hell no!) they act as if I'm the unreasonable one. Somehow this never changes my mind.

[progman32]

Keep looking, friend. Respectful places _do_ exist!

[flashgordon]

I dunno about now about back when I was in Australia (about 10 years ago), over there swe felt a very under appreciated role. One company's non compete was so eggregious it forbade even ludicrous scenarios like "after leaving us thou shall not work with another ex-employee (who did not overlap in tenure with yours) even in an unrelated field (say pig farming) for atleast 9 months". Wtf!

[toyg]

The annoying part is that these bad practices tend to spread. They start in the worst jurisdiction, and then slowly spread to the adjacent ones - e.g. first in Australia or US, then to all anglo-speaking countries, then via UK to Western Europe... Unless they get hit by some brave soul with the stomach for a lengthy and expensive judicial process, they just become standard by way of bureaucracy, one overreaching form at a time.

[ericfrazier]

Or if workers universally say no. But if enough don't say no and the practice grows, then the workers get what they allow.

[toyg]

As others said, you have to talk to a lawyer. This sort of thing is in the realm of workers' rights, hence very country-specific.

As a personal rule, if there is one thing I will never, ever share with my employer, no matter how much support they say they'll give me, is my mental-health data. The potential for abuse is just way, way too high.

[progman32]

Astounding. I can't think of a situation where this kind of intrusion is ethically acceptable. It were me, I'd question (with a lawyer) what their intent is. Why would a reputable employer stick their neck out like this? Sounds desperate, but maybe I've been reading too much fiction lately.

Document everything, try to keep the situation at work coasting along while you speak to a competent lawyer. I'm not Australian or anyone's lawyer, but my impression is that any sudden moves here can make the case against your employer much harder if you give them a reason to fire you. Next couple months are likely gonna be rough. Watch out for gaslighting attempts.

Be safe out there.

Addendum: I should clarify what I meant by "coasting along". I've heard that if you stop working come Monday that can also make the case harder for you if they fire you, since they can just say you "stopped showing up". Again, not legal advice, just advice I've heard, see what your lawyer thinks...

[d1sxeyes]

If his card is disabled to get into the building, I don't think they would be able to build a case that he 'stopped showing up'.

[justsomehnguy]

In the year 2022?

Don't be ridiculous.

Grab another phone/tablet/notebook, get to the door, record a video "Hi, this Nth of Month, I'm at work and cant enter (angry beeps from the door controller) and today is really Nth of Month, see (opening a site which shows a date and time, like a newspaper or stocks)"

EZ PZ

[d1sxeyes]

Not sure you read my comment correctly - I mean that the employer will not be able to build a case that he did not show up to work in case his card is disabled.

[justsomehnguy]

Looks like it

[progman32]

Fair. I kind of assumed there was some leeway not explained in the posting. As long as there's a written record of the employer making all work inaccessible.

[chefkoch]

Fuck No

https://lawpath.com.au/blog/what-information-can-an-employer...

/edit: what's the back story about this, your boss won't come to all of his subordinates, lock their accounts and demand their medical records?

[bbarn]

As others have said - it's invasive, and probably illegal.

BUT - I feel like we're missing some context here. Is your reason for refusal based solely on privacy concerns, or that you don't want them to know you see a psychiatrist? Have you been underperforming and used your ADHD as justification/excuse as to why and they want some proof of that?

You're mentioning the ADHD, so it must be relevant in some way, otherwise the post would simply be "My company wants my medical records, should I allow it?"

[burnoutgal]

There's no "but", it's invasive and illegal. The boss is using OP's ADHD as an excuse to demand all this private information, to "prove" they need accomodation.

[d1sxeyes]

Better not to talk in absolutes. The broad scope of this is so unusual that I can't imagine any 'large organisation' with an HR department requesting it without being sure of their grounds in advance. Obviously, they may be wrong, but I doubt this has come from nowhere.

Without any context, it does seem as though this would be illegal in my jurisdiction. However, OP mentions that the request is authorisation for HR, to request medical information, which suggests someone has already reviewed this from HR and it's possible they're more familiar with the law than you or I are in terms of what they can and can't ask for. Especially the 'twelve (12)' stinks as though it's been drafted by a lawyer.

That said, normally a 'fitness to work' proceeding in my jurisdiction would not be entitled to future medical records, and the medical records would be reviewed by first your local GP, and then eventually potentially a government occupational health authority, and would never be passed to the employer.

If this were me, I would most certainly refuse. I would instead offer to provide a statement from my doctor that I am fit to work. I can't see any way that this arrangement could possibly benefit OP.

[asteroidbelt]

Yes, knowing the context would be interesting although probably irrelevant to the answer.

I’d just quit, but calling a lawyer sounds right too.

But for example it would be reasonable (albeit inappropriate) to ask medical records of someone taking paid sick days too often.

[progman32]

I suspect quitting leaves settlement money on the table. Not saying that's unreasonable, that's for everyone to decide for themselves and their situation. But the key imo is to lawyer up before taking any drastic action...

[gpas]

IANAL but please you should find one asap. Collect every evidence you have, print it on paper and sue your employer.

I don't know about Australian law but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with what you are describing is definitely illegal.

[throwaway81523]

In the US this is expressly forbidden by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). It would surprise me a lot if stuff in AU is even worse than here, since for the most part it is pretty bad here. Anyway, contact a labor lawyer.

[toyg]

> It would surprise me a lot if stuff in AU is even worse than here

Australia is often much worse, in this sort of area, than people think. Despite a superficial similarity with UK culture and laws (which already are much weaker than the Western European average, but anyway), they are actually pretty wild.

[asteroidbelt]

Are you sure employers in US are forbidden from asking medical records?

Wikipedia says about discrimination, not about medical records.

Also, it is legal to fire people based on their vaccination status which is obviously a medical record.

[theshrike79]

Vaccination is a different thing, it's closer to requiring workers to have the required licenses and qualifications for work.

[rjzzleep]

Absolutely print all documents you have related to this request and then contact a lawyer. If you don't have anything in writing yet, try to get something in writing ASAP(try to play dumb while you do it).

[chucklenorris]

We need more context to judge the situation, but, i don't see any reason why they should have access to your medical records. A letter from your doctor should be sufficient. Get a lawyer asap, don't sign anything, you might be in for a sweet settlement if they decide to fire you.

[idontwantthis]

I think your boss just handed you and your lawyer a lot of money.

Keep all documentation, hire a lawyer, and do exactly what they say.

[theshrike79]

No. And also: FUCK NO.

I'm not an expert in Australian law, but in every single country it's expressly forbidden to ask about people's health history as it's covered by multiple laws.

[orangesite]

You need to speak to an attorney.

[_tk_]

I work in information security in a large organization. If I were informed about this, I’d immediately speak with Data Privacy personnel, HR, your manager and possibly your manager’s manager.

[sarusso]

Are they asking this because you are under-performing in their opinion?

[sarusso]

Context, before some one gets me wrong. My first reaction would be like the others: "illegal, invasive, don't do it".

However, trying to give a different point of view, they might need some sort of proof to justify internally or with the government something (i.e. an under-performance or too many ill days). For example, here in Italy we have the so called "protected categories", for which employers (bot public and private) must hire in a given percentage above a certain number of staff, and must have a certification of the condition causing to belong to such categories. But, this does not involve accessing patient records by any means.

So, on the baseline I agree with the others on the "don't do it line", and if I were you I would seek legal advice. But there is a small chance that it is not as bad as it seems.

[II2II]

Different situations and different country, but all of the correspondence I've seen between medical professionals and employers has been specific on what the employee needs and silent on everything else. Nothing is open to interpretation, nor provides extraneous information.

I will echo what others have said: get a lawyer. The laws of their jurisdiction will play a role. If those laws don't offer them protection in this regard, they may have some difficult decisions to make.

[toyg]

An adversarial measure like locking accounts is unlikely to be the result of a bureaucratic issue like the one you describe.

Much more likely, the boss got wind of some "mental instability" and now doesn't trust the worker; or was already looking for excuses to fire him and thinks he's now found it.

[mrslave]

Yes, this would involve getting your doctor (general practitioner or specialist) to write and sign a one-sentence letter confirming you suffer the condition -- with your approval of course. It would not involve exposing every medical detail.

[sarusso]

To anyone who commented, I of course agree with you. And you are right saying that locking the accounts is unlikely to be the result of a bureaucratic issue. As as I said, very little chance that is not as bad as it seems.

[davidbanham]

I would not sign that agreement. I suggest you speak to the Fair Work Ombudsman, who is the agency that exists to help you with these kinds of matters in Australia.

https://www.fairwork.gov.au/workplace-problems/fixing-a-work...

[dekhn]

No, don't do this. They basically just fired you, time to move on.

[p4cmanus3r]

- That's crazy. I would say no way. - I hope your in a position to move on. Like someone else said, they badically just fired you. - You could try to fight it. Probably expensive and no guaranted payday. - Companies should be able to ask whatever they want. - Would you want to work for someone like this anyways? Hopefully no one would.

[soco]

Happened in Switzerland too: the offshore manager (India) insisted she hands over the medical records of her therapy status, she complied, then she was put on PIP with the outspoken prospect to be fired. Then fired, and the trial is ongoing. Moral: DO NOT ACCEPT THAT. NO.

[born2discover]

If one can prove that her termination is directly linked to her medical condition/status, then the trial should return a favourable verdict for the plaintive as Siwss labour laws are strict on this kind of shenanigans.

[soco]

For somebody who is already going through therapy, the fight for that "if" is a huge and undeserved struggle (even more so).

[blitzar]

It is legal and normal(ish) in Austaralia [0] - talk to your doctors (immediately) they will have seen it before, lawyers will likely tell you to sign (I personally find emplyment lawyers the worst - my bias).

[0] https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2017/august/employment-law-a-gu... (not the best source but probably a more useful one than the actual legislation)

My personal assumptions - It sounds like you have some or all of the following happening; a) a poor relationship with your boss, b) you have been back and forth refusing to sign this, c) had a bunch of time off sick, d) are on the path to being dismissed and they are lining up their various options, e) company has a covid vaccine idea to have everyone sign this and it has nothing to do with your mental health.

Some combination of the above suggest you are on your way out of the organisation - brush up the cv, cleanup your work and get an employment lawyer for the pending dismisal. You have been there 10 years, its amazing how personal and owrk merges over time. I didnt even have a copy of my employment contract when they shut the workplace email, phone, etc off. Let alone internal information that will be relevant to your dismisal. Disclaimer: dont steal stuff or IP etc.

If they are locking the doors, you may have missed the bus to negotiate a reasonable settlement whereby your practicioner(s) can certify you have no medical issues that would affect your role without the full release of medical records. If my assumptions are all wrong then that would be the most reasonable course of action.

[burnoutgal]

Your link doesn't say "give your employer all your medical records", it says "if you take medical leave you need a certificate from a doctor". There's no obligation to prove you have no medical problems at all, if the employer has a compelling interest (ex. if OP is an airline pilot and they can't have a seizure disorder) they should provide a specific list of disqualifying conditions.

There's no job where ADHD is going to be disqualifying for health and safety reasons.

[blitzar]

KEY POINTS:

Where employers have concerns regarding the impact of an employee’s health on safety in the workplace, or there is uncertainty regarding adjustments required or the employee’s capacity to fulfil the inherent requirements of the job, employers can request employees to consent to obtaining further information from a treating practitioner – under threat of dismissal if necessary.

Can employers require additional medical information from a treating practitioner?

In certain circumstances, employers can require additional medical information from an employee’s treating practitioner. Employers have a non-delegable duty of care for the safety of anyone affected by their business operations. If the circumstances indicate that an employee’s health may have an impact on their safety at work, or that of third parties (eg co-workers), the employer has the right to clarify whether the employee’s circumstances can safely be accommodated.

Additional information may also be required to ascertain whether adjustments to the workplace can be made without detrimentally affecting the business, or to ascertain whether the employee is able to fulfil the inherent requirements of their position over the long term. In these circumstances, even if an employee is reluctant to provide the information, the employee – under a lawful threat of dismissal – can be directed to consent to provision of the information by their treating practitioner.

[chefkoch]

>Employers have a non-delegable duty of care for the safety of anyone affected by their business operations

Software, he works on software, not explosives, nuclear plants or dangerous machines.

Workplace safety won't fly for this request.

[blitzar]

I dont like it anymore than the next person, but these are the games we have to play.

<Large Organisation> can and will make shit like this fly, every time. There is obviously something more going on that OP didn't add, relations between employee and employer have clearly broken down if they are locked out of the office till they sign the document.

If you are taking off a lot of time as a result of a condition, having performance issues related to a condition etc. then clearly this is the way things are going to play out, irrespecitve of where you work or what you do. Australian employment laws allow it, and employer is going to use it ss an easy way to move on a worker.

It doest make it right, but being an asshole isnt enough, you have to actually be breaking the law to be doing something illegal.

[refurb]

From your link…

”In many cases, employers have the right to seek further health information from their employees (eg for health and safety obligations), and employees can face disciplinary action and even dismissal if they are uncooperative.”

When I worked in a former UK colony in Asia I was kind of amazed I had to get a health exam and provide the results to my employer before starting.

Luckily the same country isn’t great on follow through so nobody bothered me when I didn’t do it.

[blitzar]

Its amazing how many rules appear when your boss is trying to exit you from the building, and how relaxed these rules are every other day of the week.

Once upon a time (not very long ago) all the health insurance claims went through HR. And HR loves to gossip!

[bradgranath]

Fucked up, but seems legal: https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication/essentially-yours-the-pr...

[irvingprime]

This is not legal advice, which you should have been seeking long before coming to this forum. That aside, were I in your shows, I would not sign. EVER!!!!!!

[d--b]

If you lived in France, you'd sue immediately and you'd win and be well compensated, the company would also be likely publicly shamed on national tv.

This is ridiculous

[neximo64]

Did you sign access to it as part of your employment contract? Sorry to say but theres a chance it's all legal as you may have consented to it.

[eesmith]

And there's a chance that such contract terms, even if present, are not enforceable in Australia.

[neximo64]

There is legal precedent as grounds for dismissal for failing to attend a doctors appointment for the purposes of a medical evaluation for an employer or also failing to disclose medical records to an employer in Australia if it was part of your employment contract.

Definitely enforceable without a doubt - and many industries have it as part of a standard employment contract, e.g Aircraft pilot.

Also as part of fairwork legislation to prevent being fired as a result of extended sick leave it actually requires disclosure of the condition.

[eesmith]

There's a mismatch between the summary, which says the employer request all records, and the actual letter, which is only for work-related records.

I failed to read the actual letter before posting. My apologies.

[Fire-Dragon-DoL]

Stupid question, shouldn't the employer ask for a single certificate that your psychiatrist can provide and that's it?

Otherwise, the idea of getting a lawyer seems like a great way to get free money in this circumstance

[Bancakes]

No, and contact a lawyer for discrimination. Get a better job.

[aborsy]

This will be unimaginable in Europe (for good or worse)!

[sys_64738]

Ask your boss to give you access to his medical records.

[hardlianotion]

Not unless you are forced. Take legal advice urgently.

[gostsamo]

This sounds quite illegal. I'd say don't do it and keep log of your communication with them. Also, talk to a lawyer.

[the-alt-one]

"Software devs don't need unions!"

- Hacker News

[nightfly]

"Software devs don't need unions!"

- Some Idiots on Hacker News

[asteroidbelt]

Calling people you disagree with idiots is not the smartest thing to do.

[the-alt-one]

It's very satisfying though.

[asteroidbelt]

At expense of other people. But also at expense of personal growth.

[the-alt-one]

True, also on /r/programming. Actually, HN is typically more union friendly than /r/programming IME.

[refurb]

This is Aussie law. Americans might not be familiar with medical certificates and the like.

[ekianjo]

Unions dont care about isolated cases.

[willyt]

Really? In the UK they provide free legal advice and accompany you to every meeting with your employer in any kind of HR dispute. Not sure about every union but definitely transport, teachers and actors.

[basisword]

That's not true. In individual cases you will often have a union rep/union lawyer available to you (for free) to help you deal with the employer/HR and help you assert your rights.

[the-alt-one]

Uuhm yeah, they do. I can call my union representative right now to get help.

[nefitty]

I was never bullied growing up because I always rolled with a crew who wouldn't hesitate to circle a threat. That's unions, they make you less likely to be an "isolated case".

[Kuinox]

Plainly wrong. One of the thing to do here when you have a personal issue with your company is telling your union that will pressure the company to comply.

[KaiserPro]

That's literally the entire point of unions.

For example, in the UK, the tube lines were brought to a screeching halt because TFL wanted to take disciplinary action against a driver that failed a breatherliser test. (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-31372269)

[Brian_K_White]

They may or may not care about individuals even though they may use an individual case as an exemplar.

However the rest of these comments seem to suggest they do help individuals readily.

[nmstoker]

Would you care to elaborate on what seems a fairly implausible statement?

[mschuster91]

In Germany, they absolutely do. One of the core benefits of unions here is that they provide legal assistance to members in employment-related cases.

[ekianjo]

Providing legal assistance is different from them fighting hard for you.

[verve_rat]

No. Hell no. Talk to a lawyer, NOW!

[mrslave]

We'd love to know what happened??

[reph2097]

No.

[sys_64738]

No.

[iqanq]

I'm going to create a script called autoreply.pl

    if $title =~ m/^ask hn.*\b(employer|boss|hr)\b/i reply("Talk to a lawyer.")