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by deathanatos 1764 days ago
> over the years I’ve learned in this industry that 90% or more of coworkers and managers are not going to put the same effort into it.

What's worse to me, is the <5% (<1%?) that just actively refuse to communicate. I work with one of these right now, and it is frustrating beyond belief. I feel like conversations usually start with claims that are hard to believe, and completely unsubstantiated. Like Occam's Razor points in the complete opposite direction. Requests for evidence to back the claim up are usually deflected ("look I've been looking at this for quite a while now") or can't be provided ("I don't have the data right now" — and it will never be provided, even at a later date. The request is ignored or forgotten about. But inevitably, we should press on making a decision on the unsubstantiated claim!)

And half the time, it feels like the unsubstantiated claim, even if true … literally wouldn't matter? Like, it's then applied in a non-sequitur argument of "unsubstantiated claim A, so we should do B" where there's no logical reasoning that A should lead to B.

Almost all of the time, the amount of words or text involved is just huge, like volumes and volumes of it, using terms that nobody else would use (because, IMO, they haven't taken the time to learn the systems we use…) and most of it, to my ear, sounds like bull. Just nonsense.

Direct questions are usually just ignored, so trying to just ask clarifying questions will get one nowhere. Even simple stuff, like yes/no inquiries, so stuff like "how much space does X require?" are again answered in paragraphs of meaningless gibberish.

That these individuals work in an engineering profession just even further boggles my mind. The most charitable view I feel like I can take is that they feel like I'm attacking them (by pointing out their position is bad) and it's one giant alpha-male fight after that, when really I just don't care about that? (at the end of the day, we could both get promoted? it's not like there's some limitation there) and really I'm just looking to get solid data to help make a good decision, and what I'm getting back just doesn't. make. sense.

It's so hard to describe in a HN comment, since these individuals are just so irrational from my point of view. Like, "fails the Turing test" … interactions seem more like a bad or aggressive Markov chain rather than a thinking person…

3 comments

> conversations usually start with claims that are hard to believe, and completely unsubstantiated. Like Occam's Razor points in the complete opposite direction. Requests for evidence to back the claim up are usually deflected

In public, you just have to put a stake in the ground as delicately as you can. Something like: "All our research showed that A is the best way to go. We have not seen this data that B is better, so we continue to recommend A." At least then baseless assertions aren't standing entirely unchallenged.

Privately, you may be able to gently escalate the issue... Reminding Mr X's boss or another interested party that you never received the information Mr X promised, and hint at your doubts of the veracity of Mr X's claims.

> it's then applied in a non-sequitur argument of "unsubstantiated claim A, so we should do B" where there's no logical reasoning that A should lead to B.

Any chance Mr X is very familiar and comfortable with "B", and much less with "A"? I have seen this kind of behavior with some people, who don't want to put in the effort to learn something new, or are deathly afraid looking incompetent. The result can be an extremely unpleasant personality.

> never received the information that Mr X promised

If you re-read the above, you’ll notice that Mr X never promised to have the data. He instead said he lacked the data.

One reason a person can end up losing credibility and making lots of excuses is that they are overcommitted. “I do not have time” might sound like an excuse, but it is genuinely possible to work 80-hour weeks on 5 hours of sleep and still be unable to complete ones daily task list or even to remember it.

Solving this requires that they learn to say no and to underpromise so they can eventually have time to overdeliver. This is awfully hard if their “no” to tasks like data collection is reinterpreted as a promise.

> you’ll notice that Mr X never promised to have the data. He instead said he lacked the data.

I don't know what the actual situation was, but what the parent typed seemed to indicate Mr X was implying he could provide his data later (but based on past experience, never will):

> "I don't have the data right now" — and it will never be provided

I'm all for people working a reasonable number of hours and getting plenty of sleep. But if you are steering major decisions, you need to be able to substantiate up your reasoning. Being overworked is not going to make your judgment better so everyone acting on your questionable directions without confirming data is made all the more risky.

I hope your own situation has worked out.

I changed teams and went on a meditation retreat. Things are much better.

Your larger point is correct up until the point where the decision is “I, Mr. X am not going to take on that additional work.” Until Mr. X exercises the autonomy to say “no”, he will always be overwhelmed and struggle to think and speak clearly. Until others trust him when he claims something is hard and are willing to take no for an answer, their distrust will make him untrustworthy.

It is a vicious cycle.

If somebody's overworked, then their boss is not doing their job well and should be complained to.
It's 100% possible that we work for the same company, on the same team, and have complained about the same individual on HN before.
This is similar to a frustrating pattern of my own behavior over last year. Would you like to know what is behind it?
> This is similar to a frustrating pattern of my own behavior over last year. Would you like to know what is behind it?

I don’t understand why someone would take this approach. Why not just explain the thing?

Then again, this seems like more of what was described, so perhaps this is in character. And this makes me wonder if this comment is actually trolling. Please understand that I’m not accusing you of trolling so much as I’m observing that this would be a really well-executed troll if such was the intent.

> Why not just explain the thing?

I asked first if y’all wanted to know because:

1. It will take a long time to write the answer so I first wanted to know if it would be at all interesting or if it would be dismissed as whinging and excuses.

2. in the past year, I’ve had severe negative responses to posting a verbose text response. I wanted to avoid that by first asking if people wanted it.

Yes, please share!
So it was a vicious cycle.

1. Recruited during a massive hiring push. Joined a team whose lead had joined less than 6 months earlier.

2. Encountered weird and unexpected difficulties.

3. Told my team lead that I felt like I wasn’t really delivering. Was told not to worry about impostor syndrome. Was urged to be more confident in standup.

4. During standup, confidently stated what I would get done according to what I thought was reasonable.

5. After overpromising, tried to figure out my current task. Didn’t ask for help because I did not know whom to ask.

6. Expected weird and unexpected difficulties.

7. After underdelivering, didn’t ask for help because I was ashamed to be taking so long at a task the team said was simple.

8. Worked longer hours to try to understand things.

9. Broadcast-Asked for help understanding things as my task dragged on.

10. Didn’t use the help successfully because the timebox for the task ran out. Burnt credibility.

11. At refinement said the next task would be hard. Lacked the information needed to win an argument for a longer estimate.

12. Tried to do tools-improvement work to increase my pace. Got distracted by this.

13. Tried to explain need to improve tools but was too brain-fried to write concisely.

GOTO 4

…With many variations.

Yeah that sounds pretty bad. If I was you I would refuse to take on more work until you can handle what your current task load is. And always multiply how long you think it will take by 3. Saying yes to more work when you are drowning is bad for you and everybody else.