[masklinn]

> The problem will multiply. If people are incapable of integrating

It's not and never been that people were incapable of integrating. Usually it's that they're refused the opportunity by being recognisably other and easy to discriminate against in various more or less overt ways.

I've a bunch of french journal clippings about first diaspora italians, they read exactly like your ilk. But once they speak french it’s pretty hard to differentiate an italian from a southern french or corsican.

[DrNosferatu]

"Incapable of integrating"??? The biggest constant here is the attitude to Difference in German Society. A fellow engineer, of Arabic (Tunisian) origin but raised in Germany, told me that when she was little girl, she was a very good student - including in German language - and on the occasion of her test being the best of her class, an angry colleague said: "they shouldn't have given you a better grade: you're not German!". Having lived in Germany for 8 years, I got stories like this from immigrants raised in Germany, all the time. At some point I started to consciously choose my words to make sure there wasn't any bias when I heard the telling of this kind of story when I asked something of the sort: "how was it to grow up in Germany?".

[DrNosferatu]

I mean "attitude to Difference in German Society" in contrast to other European countries. It really stands out in the south of Germany.

[southerntofu]

The same is true in every imperialist culture, like France, UK, Russia, China, India... The claim to be superior to others is a huge problem.

[Zababa]

That is true of every culture, period. In France, white people that comes from metropolitan France get discriminated against by black people living in Martinique, La Réunion, etc, because white people are the minority here. It is human to think that our in group is superior.

[southerntofu]

> That is true of every culture (...) It is human to think that our in group is superior

I don't think this is true. There's nothing inherently natural about this. One could even argue that cooperation, not competition, is what brought us this far. Of course i'm all ears for counter-arguments but usually this stance is just misinformed "common knowledge" among people coming from imperialist cultures who tend to see the rest of the world in the same way.

> white people (...) get discriminated against by black people living in Martinique, La Réunion

That's not exactly comparable. There's a deep history of colonization, massacres and exploitation which leads to resentment (which is not the same as racism in my view, and is definitely not the same as a superiority complex). If you think that's over, just look at who owns land and industry on those islands you'll see it's all white people most of whom inherited their wealth from pillaging the local population.

[Zababa]

> I don't think this is true. There's nothing inherently natural about this. One could even argue that cooperation, not competition, is what brought us this far.

Cooperation with the in-group, sure. Outside of that, most humans will at some point compete with the out-group for resources. That's thus far the history of humanity, for the vast majority of people that lived.

> That's not exactly comparable. There's a deep history of colonization, massacres and exploitation which leads to resentment (which is not the same as racism in my view, and is definitely not the same as a superiority complex).

Most of the people currently here have nothing to do with that history though.

> If you think that's over, just look at who owns land and industry on those islands you'll see it's all white people most of whom inherited their wealth from pillaging the local population.

Sure, they may be white but they're mostly filthy rich. Changing a class struggle in a race struggle is divide to reign 101, and it seems to be working.

[southerntofu]

> Outside of that, most humans will at some point compete with the out-group for resources.

Source?

> for the vast majority of people that lived

That's the history of civilizations maybe, but not every group/culture turns into an imperialist civilization. See also anticiv critiques.

> Most of the people currently here have nothing to do with that history though.

I would argue otherwise. They are not responsible for the actions of their ancestors, but everyone has a possibility and responsibility to correct unfair situations.

> Sure, they may be white but they're mostly filthy rich. Changing a class struggle in a race struggle is divide to reign 101

These are two different aspects of the same situation. How some nations and people became filthy rich is historically tied to a history of hierarchy of races and cultures, and this cannot be ignored. Studying class/race without the other is doomed to failure.

Race reductionism is just as dangerous as class reductionism. It's often brought up in leftist circles that bringing up racism in political analysis is "dividing left-unity". However, historically (at least here in France), immigrants had to form their own unions (Main d'Oeuvre Immigrée, Mouvement des Travailleurs Arabes) because they were discriminated in the mainstream anticapitalist movement. Now we're facing a second trend of economically-privileged liberals over-emphasizing racial issues while downplaying class struggles, and that's equally misjudging.

See also intersectionality as a field of study in social sciences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

[TMWNN]

>It's not and never been that people were incapable of integrating. Usually it's that they're refused the opportunity by being recognisably other and easy to discriminate against in various more or less overt ways.

Why is it that the people themselves never have any responsibility for integrating themselves?

Britain has three groups from the Indian subcontinent:

* Indian Hindus

* Indian Sikhs

* Indian and Pakistani Muslims

Sikhs and Hindus have been very successful; they are more likely than the average to be part of the British middle class (<http://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/dec/14/middle-britain-...>). Muslims are, by contrast, worse than average in every single social measure despite being, racially speaking, indistinguishable from the other two groups to any outsider (since none knows, or cares, about the myriad of caste differences); they are all "Asians" in Britain.

[Zababa]

Speaking about France specifically, that's not true. People 50 years mostly knew how to recognize French from Italians. Not with 100% certainty of course, but what you say about " once they speak french it’s pretty hard to differentiate an italian from a southern french or corsican" is a bit like when people say asian people look all the same. Also, immigrants in France 50 years ago made more sacrifices to intergrate themselves (be it Italians, North Africans or Asians). They took French names, spoke French at home, things like that. I've seen a few documentaries about this. It was frequent from Asian to suddenly be told "now your name is <French name> and not <Asian name>", and be told to not speak anything else than French outside of home. Same for Italians, same for North Africans. The immigration was also more limited at the time, which allowed some people from North Africa, especially young women, to get away from their traditions and have a better place in society.

That is not what is happening right now. I'm not sure of the causes, but things have changed.

Edit: as some other people mentionned, work might make a big difference. The grandfather of a friend was a bus driver all his life, and that friend and his father are well integrated. If you can't access a job like that it's going to be hard to fit into society.

[masklinn]

> Speaking about France specifically, that's not true. People 50 years mostly knew how to recognize French from Italians.

No, a second or third-generation french of italian origins is not recognisably non-french at a glance. At best they can be recognised as "not from the area" (which in some places is still a concern, but nowhere near the same).

> is a bit like when people say asian people look all the same.

It really is not.

A second or third-generation french of african or middle-eastern or asian origin can generally be recognised at a glance.

> Also, immigrants in France 50 years ago made more sacrifices to intergrate themselves (be it Italians, North Africans or Asians). […] That is not what is happening right now. I'm not sure of the causes, but things have changed.

https://i.redd.it/7easdur0x7i51.jpg

That's from 140 years ago. It might as well be from yesterday, with the nations of origin changed.

And it's hilarious that you're now using north african immigrants as a model minority alongside asians as a cudgel to hit others.

> The immigration was also more limited at the time, which allowed some people from North Africa, especially young women, to get away from their traditions and have a better place in society.

Hundreds of thousands of italians moved to france during the first diaspora: the italian population in france went from 63000 in 1850 to 330000 in 1901 (this does not include seasonal worker). The country was barely 40 million people. And over a million non-pieds-noirs immigrated from northern africa between the 50s and 70s.

[Zababa]

> No, a second or third-generation french of italian origins is not recognisably non-french at a glance.

I thought we were talking about first generation immigrants. I agree with you that second or third generation immigrants from Italy are hard/impossible to recognize, but that's not the case for others.

> That's from 140 years ago. It might as well be from yesterday, with the nations of origin changed.

There's rarely mentions of nations of origins in the news these days, journalists mostly talk about "young people", probably because pointing out the countries of origin would be racist, and also because sometimes the people mentionned have been in the country for a few generations.

> And it's hilarious that you're now using north african immigrants as a model minority alongside asians as a cudgel to hit others.

I wasn't hitting other minorities, I mentionned how some acted differently before. These days having to sacrifice your culture to integrate yourself in a country is seen as a bad thing. Before it was the obvious thing to do. I'm not passing judgment on any of those views, but highlighting that the mentalities have changed.

> Hundreds of thousands of italians moved to france during the first diaspora: the italian population in france went from 63000 in 1850 to 330000 in 1901 (this does not include seasonal worker). The country was barely 40 million people. And over a million non-pieds-noirs immigrated from northern africa between the 50s and 70s.

We have around ~150k people going in the country every year (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_en_France#Solde_mi...), with ~100k people becoming French each year. Considering the population didn't double since 1850, we now have more immigration in terms of percentage of the population compared to the two events you mentionned.

Again, I'm not passing judgment on anyone. I'm trying to understand why people felt that there was way more cohension in the 70s-90s (when my parents grew), and if their sentiment is true.

[6510]

Here in NL a beer went from 5-15 cent to 3-4 euro. Tea, coffee and water use to be free. Hell, you would get a free cookie with the coffee.

300 years ago we had no job agencies, there was no need for them. You just went to the local bar and asked the bartender. They would be quick to point out the unemployed guy with the biggest tab and his friends would push him forwards.

Learning a language in school just doesn't work. You have to go to the pub and talk with the [drunk] strangers. Its the only way to learn (and preserve) the local dialect.

Migrants come here and wonder where the f the public places are? Some are quick to build a Mosk. Learning dutch there is somewhat of a challenge to put it mildly.

So the problem [in my view] is that to much effort was put in shutting down public gatherings. We use to have Neighborhood Associations all over. People went there to chat with their neighbors/organize things. It was all shut down from the top down to boost exploitation and dictate the narrative.

[raverbashing]

> I've (read) a bunch of french journal clippings about first diaspora italians

Correct. And yet, they integrated.

Also see: Asians in the US. Especially those that migrated before WWII. (Or Italians or Irish, of course)

[southerntofu]

And yet, at some point in history all those groups you cited were "stealing our jobs" and "dangerous individuals" whose culture is incompatible with "ours". See also, the myth of the model minority: https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/what-is-the-mode...

[masklinn]

> Correct. And yet, they integrated.

Because within a generation they were impossible to tell apart.

> Also see: Asians in the US. Especially those that migrated before WWII.

Tell me you have no idea about asian american integration without telling me you have no idea about asian american integration.

[southerntofu]

> Because within a generation they were impossible to tell apart.

I don't think that's a correct interpretation. I would rather say the conservative blamers found other scapegoats to blame, for example with other immigration waves

[raverbashing]

My comment about Asians are that they integrated in spite of what happened during WWII

[masklinn]

You don't need to confirm what we already understood.

[cabraca]

> Usually it's that they're refused the opportunity by being recognisably other and easy to discriminate against in various more or less overt ways.

As someone who works as a volunteer at a refugee center and supports a syrian family i can tell you thats not the case. We have two kinds of "refugees" in germany.

1) Real Refugees, that fear for their life 2) Migrants, that use the opportunity and the political climate to come to germany.

The second ones are the ones causing problems. A lot of them are aggressive, dealing drugs, using multiple identities to get more money. They miss their (provided) german classes and in one center they ripped out all ceramic toilets and sinks MULTIPLE TIMES. The amount of times i had to call the cops because one of them was drunk and drew a knife is just crazy.

So maybe they are refused integration because they are "recognisably other and easy to discriminate against" ... maybe its just because they behave like assholes.

[southerntofu]

> The second ones are the ones causing problems.

That can be expected from people who went through various forms of traumas and insecurities. The same is usually said of people from poor neighborhoods, with the same kind of disdain.

Social problems are not solved by repression. 60 years ago, there were just as many racist comments pointing out how polish/spanish/italian immigrants were dangerous and not integrating in society. But 60 years ago, the economy was booming and the industry couldn't afford to discard workers; as a consequence, noone was forced a life of insecurity and most people had general faith in the system that if they worked hard enough they could enjoy their life.

Today it's much harder to find a job, especially without a recognized diploma (even janitors and cashiers are expected to have diplomas nowadays) and working very hard every day is not guaranteed to get you out of misery. "Migrants" as you call them, or most of them any way, are very much looking for a job and denied the opportunity. I know quite a lot of illegal immigrants here in france (sans-papiers) and they're always looking for an opportunity to work (they don't have the same social benefits french people and asylum seekers do) and it's very often, either they work very hard for little pay on construction sites or in kitchens (think 10h works 60€ pay) or the boss won't even pay them after weeks of work (that is VERY common in the restauration industry).

This is a hard reality we can't ignore if we try to understand the situation. Give people decent situation and opportunities, and you'll see they'll integrate just fine. Only people who've been denied justice turn to antisocial behavior... that's a very well studied problem in social sciences since way before this latest immigration wave started. Remember that for a very long time, the nobles of Europe claimed to be of a different species (the blue blood) and that workers were genetically programmed to be aggressive, stupid and hard-working.

> maybe its just because they behave like assholes

Take anyone and treat them bad, they'll either become ultra servile, or start behaving like assholes. The same is true with immigrants, which fall into both categories.

[allendoerfer]

Well, they are not allowed to work, which pushes them into "jobs" like drug-dealing.

[the-dude]

Those migrants typically don't qualify for asylum and are basically not allowed in the first place. They are just navigating the system for as long as they do not get expelled, which is impossible in some cases.

It is beyond me why you would give these people the right to work.

[allendoerfer]

Them being allowed to stay is not my point. My point is that IF they are in the country they will do something. If you do not allow them to work, they will do other things.

Either have proper borders around Europe, push them out instantly etc. or allow them to work. But don't complain about them dealing drugs. It is not the underlying problem here, just a logical consequence.

Side note: Just legalizing marihuana would also work.

[the-dude]

> Just legalizing marihuana would also work.

No it doesn't. I am from NL, we have legalized the (selling to) consumer part for decades, so they'll do other stuff.

I agree it is a difficult political problem ( which we created ourselves ), but just as other 'simple' solutions are not feasible, simply allowing them to work is equally infeasible.

[allendoerfer]

Unfortunately, once they are here, we will have a very hard time to push them out again. They will destroy their passports, lie about there identy, their countries of origin won't take them back etc.

If we do not want them, closed Southern and Eastern EU borders or rather closed North African borders are our only courses of action. We can try to work with North Africa and Turkey to handle asylum processes over there. Of course this does brings some moral problems with it and will be opposed by the left. Children drowning is the ultimate bad publicity for your political stance. It comes down to what we are willing or feel obliqued to take responsibility for.

People, who are already here will stay anyway. That ship has sailed, we should start integrating asap.

[the-dude]

This is basically the same in NL.