[cabraca]

> Usually it's that they're refused the opportunity by being recognisably other and easy to discriminate against in various more or less overt ways.

As someone who works as a volunteer at a refugee center and supports a syrian family i can tell you thats not the case. We have two kinds of "refugees" in germany.

1) Real Refugees, that fear for their life 2) Migrants, that use the opportunity and the political climate to come to germany.

The second ones are the ones causing problems. A lot of them are aggressive, dealing drugs, using multiple identities to get more money. They miss their (provided) german classes and in one center they ripped out all ceramic toilets and sinks MULTIPLE TIMES. The amount of times i had to call the cops because one of them was drunk and drew a knife is just crazy.

So maybe they are refused integration because they are "recognisably other and easy to discriminate against" ... maybe its just because they behave like assholes.

[southerntofu]

> The second ones are the ones causing problems.

That can be expected from people who went through various forms of traumas and insecurities. The same is usually said of people from poor neighborhoods, with the same kind of disdain.

Social problems are not solved by repression. 60 years ago, there were just as many racist comments pointing out how polish/spanish/italian immigrants were dangerous and not integrating in society. But 60 years ago, the economy was booming and the industry couldn't afford to discard workers; as a consequence, noone was forced a life of insecurity and most people had general faith in the system that if they worked hard enough they could enjoy their life.

Today it's much harder to find a job, especially without a recognized diploma (even janitors and cashiers are expected to have diplomas nowadays) and working very hard every day is not guaranteed to get you out of misery. "Migrants" as you call them, or most of them any way, are very much looking for a job and denied the opportunity. I know quite a lot of illegal immigrants here in france (sans-papiers) and they're always looking for an opportunity to work (they don't have the same social benefits french people and asylum seekers do) and it's very often, either they work very hard for little pay on construction sites or in kitchens (think 10h works 60€ pay) or the boss won't even pay them after weeks of work (that is VERY common in the restauration industry).

This is a hard reality we can't ignore if we try to understand the situation. Give people decent situation and opportunities, and you'll see they'll integrate just fine. Only people who've been denied justice turn to antisocial behavior... that's a very well studied problem in social sciences since way before this latest immigration wave started. Remember that for a very long time, the nobles of Europe claimed to be of a different species (the blue blood) and that workers were genetically programmed to be aggressive, stupid and hard-working.

> maybe its just because they behave like assholes

Take anyone and treat them bad, they'll either become ultra servile, or start behaving like assholes. The same is true with immigrants, which fall into both categories.

[allendoerfer]

Well, they are not allowed to work, which pushes them into "jobs" like drug-dealing.

[the-dude]

Those migrants typically don't qualify for asylum and are basically not allowed in the first place. They are just navigating the system for as long as they do not get expelled, which is impossible in some cases.

It is beyond me why you would give these people the right to work.

[allendoerfer]

Them being allowed to stay is not my point. My point is that IF they are in the country they will do something. If you do not allow them to work, they will do other things.

Either have proper borders around Europe, push them out instantly etc. or allow them to work. But don't complain about them dealing drugs. It is not the underlying problem here, just a logical consequence.

Side note: Just legalizing marihuana would also work.

[the-dude]

> Just legalizing marihuana would also work.

No it doesn't. I am from NL, we have legalized the (selling to) consumer part for decades, so they'll do other stuff.

I agree it is a difficult political problem ( which we created ourselves ), but just as other 'simple' solutions are not feasible, simply allowing them to work is equally infeasible.

[allendoerfer]

Unfortunately, once they are here, we will have a very hard time to push them out again. They will destroy their passports, lie about there identy, their countries of origin won't take them back etc.

If we do not want them, closed Southern and Eastern EU borders or rather closed North African borders are our only courses of action. We can try to work with North Africa and Turkey to handle asylum processes over there. Of course this does brings some moral problems with it and will be opposed by the left. Children drowning is the ultimate bad publicity for your political stance. It comes down to what we are willing or feel obliqued to take responsibility for.

People, who are already here will stay anyway. That ship has sailed, we should start integrating asap.

[the-dude]

> That ship has sailed, we should start integrating asap.

Not before the gap has been closed, otherwise you will only attract more.

[the-dude]

This is basically the same in NL.