[Zababa]

Speaking about France specifically, that's not true. People 50 years mostly knew how to recognize French from Italians. Not with 100% certainty of course, but what you say about " once they speak french it’s pretty hard to differentiate an italian from a southern french or corsican" is a bit like when people say asian people look all the same. Also, immigrants in France 50 years ago made more sacrifices to intergrate themselves (be it Italians, North Africans or Asians). They took French names, spoke French at home, things like that. I've seen a few documentaries about this. It was frequent from Asian to suddenly be told "now your name is <French name> and not <Asian name>", and be told to not speak anything else than French outside of home. Same for Italians, same for North Africans. The immigration was also more limited at the time, which allowed some people from North Africa, especially young women, to get away from their traditions and have a better place in society.

That is not what is happening right now. I'm not sure of the causes, but things have changed.

Edit: as some other people mentionned, work might make a big difference. The grandfather of a friend was a bus driver all his life, and that friend and his father are well integrated. If you can't access a job like that it's going to be hard to fit into society.

[masklinn]

> Speaking about France specifically, that's not true. People 50 years mostly knew how to recognize French from Italians.

No, a second or third-generation french of italian origins is not recognisably non-french at a glance. At best they can be recognised as "not from the area" (which in some places is still a concern, but nowhere near the same).

> is a bit like when people say asian people look all the same.

It really is not.

A second or third-generation french of african or middle-eastern or asian origin can generally be recognised at a glance.

> Also, immigrants in France 50 years ago made more sacrifices to intergrate themselves (be it Italians, North Africans or Asians). […] That is not what is happening right now. I'm not sure of the causes, but things have changed.

https://i.redd.it/7easdur0x7i51.jpg

That's from 140 years ago. It might as well be from yesterday, with the nations of origin changed.

And it's hilarious that you're now using north african immigrants as a model minority alongside asians as a cudgel to hit others.

> The immigration was also more limited at the time, which allowed some people from North Africa, especially young women, to get away from their traditions and have a better place in society.

Hundreds of thousands of italians moved to france during the first diaspora: the italian population in france went from 63000 in 1850 to 330000 in 1901 (this does not include seasonal worker). The country was barely 40 million people. And over a million non-pieds-noirs immigrated from northern africa between the 50s and 70s.

[Zababa]

> No, a second or third-generation french of italian origins is not recognisably non-french at a glance.

I thought we were talking about first generation immigrants. I agree with you that second or third generation immigrants from Italy are hard/impossible to recognize, but that's not the case for others.

> That's from 140 years ago. It might as well be from yesterday, with the nations of origin changed.

There's rarely mentions of nations of origins in the news these days, journalists mostly talk about "young people", probably because pointing out the countries of origin would be racist, and also because sometimes the people mentionned have been in the country for a few generations.

> And it's hilarious that you're now using north african immigrants as a model minority alongside asians as a cudgel to hit others.

I wasn't hitting other minorities, I mentionned how some acted differently before. These days having to sacrifice your culture to integrate yourself in a country is seen as a bad thing. Before it was the obvious thing to do. I'm not passing judgment on any of those views, but highlighting that the mentalities have changed.

> Hundreds of thousands of italians moved to france during the first diaspora: the italian population in france went from 63000 in 1850 to 330000 in 1901 (this does not include seasonal worker). The country was barely 40 million people. And over a million non-pieds-noirs immigrated from northern africa between the 50s and 70s.

We have around ~150k people going in the country every year (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_en_France#Solde_mi...), with ~100k people becoming French each year. Considering the population didn't double since 1850, we now have more immigration in terms of percentage of the population compared to the two events you mentionned.

Again, I'm not passing judgment on anyone. I'm trying to understand why people felt that there was way more cohension in the 70s-90s (when my parents grew), and if their sentiment is true.

[6510]

Here in NL a beer went from 5-15 cent to 3-4 euro. Tea, coffee and water use to be free. Hell, you would get a free cookie with the coffee.

300 years ago we had no job agencies, there was no need for them. You just went to the local bar and asked the bartender. They would be quick to point out the unemployed guy with the biggest tab and his friends would push him forwards.

Learning a language in school just doesn't work. You have to go to the pub and talk with the [drunk] strangers. Its the only way to learn (and preserve) the local dialect.

Migrants come here and wonder where the f the public places are? Some are quick to build a Mosk. Learning dutch there is somewhat of a challenge to put it mildly.

So the problem [in my view] is that to much effort was put in shutting down public gatherings. We use to have Neighborhood Associations all over. People went there to chat with their neighbors/organize things. It was all shut down from the top down to boost exploitation and dictate the narrative.