[_ykl9]

I was with you until this somehow turned into "both sides are equally bad". We should absolutely push for greater transparency and verifiability into the internals of such critical infrastructure.

The fact that one side has not prioritized this isn't similar to the other side's repeated attempts to overthrow our government.

[getlawgdon]

Thank you SO much for this. The false equivalency fallacy is part of the problem. The misdeeds on the sides are absolutely asymmetrical.

[TechBro8615]

Wait, which side are you talking about? Is it the same side that’s been pushing election security bills with the most basic attempts to improve security of elections?

We don’t even need security – we need confidence. And this recent idea that it takes weeks to count votes, that we might not know the results for weeks – is completely unacceptable and is already doing irreparable damage to people’s faith in elections.

[HWR_14]

> this recent idea that it takes weeks to count votes, that we might not know the results for weeks – is completely unacceptable

Why on earth would that be? The "counting period" was originally set at 5 weeks. Between laws saying that you cannot start counting mail in ballots before the close of polls on election day, laws that (rightly) limit how many hours that can be spent counting ballots, etc. I'm not sure how to square that with instant results.

Maybe we just be patient counting the scores in a contest that takes 18 months to run?

[TechBro8615]

You have a super computer in your pocket. There is no reason counting votes should take any longer than it takes to receive them.

[HWR_14]

You want to trust democracy to OCR? Heck, there are lawsuits where humans disagree.

But, even if you ignore that two individuals (or three) representing all the candidates each count by hand a stack of ten, have to agree, sign off that they agree, etc. I think you underestimate other problems. You're focused on the counting.

Just consider how long it takes to open the outer envelope, check the signature on the inner envelope (again, by multiple people who represent different campaigns), and physically remove and unfold that sheet of paper. Now multiply by several million. Add in some extra time for managing stack of ten ballots.

Or, to put it another way, we don't vote with a phone app. We are willing to pay extra for security.

[dillondoyle]

Addition is fast. Opening ballots, verifying signatures, checking voter is legit, and then marking it all down takes time. Especially when bound by law to not open envelopes until 7pm eday.

[TechBro8615]

On another thread here, someone was explaining to me that mail-in ballots are separated from their provenance by design. So what exactly are these election workers spending hours doing to “verify signatures” and “check voter is legit?”

[yuubi]

That information is on the outside of the envelope and is verified before the envelope is opened. In some states, the ballot is inside another envelope that is opened after the voter info is separated from the ballot.

[jcranmer]

Well, you have to physically open up the envelope to pull ballots out. You have to look up the purported voter in the registration database. Check--does it exist? Does the signature match? Did the voter already cast a ballot? Get second opinions on this data for auditability purposes. And when all that's done, now you can put it in the machine. Except maybe the machine doesn't like the ballot because the ballot had to be folded to go through the postal system, so now you have to spend time flattening out the paper to get the machine to accept it.

Let's say it takes a minute to process a single ballot. That means a single poll worker can go through a couple hundred ballots--500 is a nice round number-- a day. And all of this is going to be processed generally at a centralized facility at county level, and because of the pandemic, you might have 500,000 of those to get through. Even with 100 workers working those ballots, that's still going to take 10 days to get through everything.

[__float]

So… you want the voting machines to be networked?

I really suspect you’re being intentionally difficult here, this is not such a simple problem as you suggest.

[thinkcontext]

Is this a joke? The side that was chasing after nonsense like Italian satellites, bamboo fibers, etc and firing AGs that wouldn't play ball is the side that is seeking to instill confidence?! Its a good thing that side has now been busy changing laws to allow themselves to overrule election results, I know that instills confidence in me.

[TechBro8615]

I can point to examples of clowns on the blue team too. This logical fallacy of “crazy by association” seems to be an increasingly popular trend in online political discussion. I wonder how many people simply choose not to engage.

[thinkcontext]

Except that your Italian satellite clowns are the ones in control of your party and are purging anyone who doesn't toe the clown line from it.

[TechBro8615]

By “purging,” do you mean that the red team is banning people they disagree with from speaking on the websites they own?

And I honestly don’t even know who you’re talking about but I assume it’s the pillow/pcap guy.

Have you heard about the president’s son, or the New York governor, or the speaker of the house who moonlights as a prolific stock trader?

Good people are not leading us.

[thinkcontext]

Trump is the leader of your party. He is the one that had Meadows send Italian satellites to DOJ and all the other nonsense. He is the one that axed Barr after Barr said there was no evidence to support the crazy that Trump was spewing. He's the one purging people from your party that speak out against this insanity.

Your other whataboutisms are weak sauce compared with this. In particular the Cuomo one is not good for you, he's out, while your party continues to embrace the p**y grabber that has a higher harassment allegation count.

[XorNot]

Such as?

[amanaplanacanal]

Is that really a recent thing though? Or has it always taken some places weeks to count votes, just not in close states?

[HWR_14]

It's recent because of the huge amount of write in ballots. Usually the winner is called the night of because they* just ignore the mail in numbers, even in battleground states. This year, there were too many (and they were too different a population from the in person ballots) to do that.

* "They" meaning the news media. The official vote took longer and counted the mail in ballots

[amanaplanacanal]

Ah yes, COVID. And then some states passed laws that the mail in ballots couldn't start being counted until after election day.

[lettergram]

You do realize, both sides are claiming the other is trying to overthrow the government, right?

Both have, in my view, reasonable arguments on why they feel that way.

Try to zoom out and look at your comment from the 3rd person view. The right believes the left stole an election (coup), they believe they have evidence to prove it. The left saw Jan 6 on the corporate news and believes they have the evidence to prove Trump attempted to seize government.

Note, none of the people charged for Jan 6 was for sedition. So the evidence really isn't there either.

If you take a step back and try to see both perspectives, perhaps it's possible to relate again.

[_ykl9]

Sure both sides are claiming it, but only one side is correct.

On the right, we have:

* USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election

* Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts (including having broken precedent to rush a SCOTUS appointment during the election, which could have changed the outcome of the coup attempt in a different timeline)

* 1/6

* Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...), alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering

And the left has:

* Failed to advocate for open source voting systems (which isn't a widely known or politically relevant issue on either side at present)

* Pushed for stronger voting rights and increased voter participation — both uncontroversially positive properties of a democracy, but also happen to benefit the Democratic Party at the current moment

* Proposed measures in the For the People Act that were arguably overly ambitious or aggressive in the current political environment, such as stricter campaign finance regulations, which were promptly renegotiated within their own party ranks

To frame these as comparable is borderline gaslighting.

[lettergram]

It’s frankly exhausting to have discussions when both sides live in their own worlds. You sound arrogant, “only one side is correct and it’s my side”

Every day I switch between msnbc, nbc, warroom.org, breaking points, Ben Shapiro and Tim pool. Probably ~6-8hrs a day I listen to content at double speed (while doing other stuff).

Every single one has their own take, but just to get you up-to-date with what the right believes:

* BLM and Antifa caused billions in damages. Harassing or attacking everyone who disagreed with ideology (they were coming to senators homes)

* in some places this is leading to the reintroduction of segregation https://atlantablackstar.com/2021/08/10/it-was-just-disbelie...

* FBI spied on trump on Clinton and Obama’s behalf. Utilizing a known fabricated document (fabricated to keep business with the Clinton foundation - see uranium one): https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-sc...

* election laws were changed last minute, broken among other things to effect a coup and they brag about it: https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/

* more people voted in 2020 than were registered in 2016 or 2018. With a 93% then out rate.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registe...

* here’s a couple video explaining some of their concerns about the election

https://rumble.com/vkyxju-retired-u.s.-army-colonel-phil-wal...

https://rumble.com/vkyzgb-mike-lindell-cyber-symposium-dr.-d...

The list goes on and on...

[_ykl9]

It’s frankly exhausting to have discussions when both sides live in their own worlds.

It is indeed.

You sound arrogant, “only one side is correct and it’s my side”

I have very little patience for dishonesty. If that makes me seem "arrogant" to peddlers of disinformation, so be it.

BLM and Antifa caused billions in damages

Sure. That was terrible and uncalled for. Lots of bad ideas and movements come from the grassroots left, like "Defund the Police" and "All Cops are Bastards". I don't recall this being sanctioned or incited by Joe Biden or the Democratic Party, and it wasn't a coup d'etat.

in some places this is leading to the reintroduction of segregation

I didn't see where your source made a connection between these events. Either way, if you think that a racist principal imposing segregation in their school somehow vindicates right-wing insurrectionists, I don't know what to tell you.

FBI spied on trump on Clinton and Obama’s behalf. Utilizing a known fabricated document

This is an article about two British citizens independently making a decision to attempt to influence our election in a small way. I find that objectionable for the same reason as Russia's larger-scale election interference, but I don't see how it relates to the conspiracy theory of Obama spying on Trump.

election laws were changed last minute, broken among other things to effect a coup and they brag about it

Can you be more specific? All I'm seeing from an initial pass is that an effort was made to respond to right-wing voter suppression efforts and disinformation leading up to the election.

more people voted in 2020 than were registered in 2016 or 2018. With a 93% then out rate.

That was pretty cool. I'm not sure what you're suggesting it has to do with right-wing beliefs.

here’s a couple video explaining some of their concerns about the election

Sure, I'm aware that Trump and his allies claim to have concerns. That's what we're discussing here. Do you have more specific points and sources that aren't videos?

[TeeMassive]

> the other side's repeated attempts to overthrow our government.

Are you talking about Russia or the Federalist Society SCOTUS picks or the rioters who were let in by the few security guards remaining after the Capitol security was lowered or the Big Tech services that should be declared as political donations but aren't?

[_ykl9]

To be more specific, I was referring to:

* USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election

* Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts (including having broken precedent to rush a SCOTUS appointment during the election, which could have changed the outcome of the coup attempt in a different timeline)

* 1/6

* Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...), alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering

[TeeMassive]

> * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election

This is implying that default mail-in voting was a way to get Democrats elected in the first place. (which it was given how mail-in voting was the source of the Democrats advance when they arrived)

> Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts

Challenging elections integrity in the courts are what insure the process is transparent and followed in the first place. This makes no sense by definition. Just because a SCOTUS nominee was nominated just before doesn't change anything and is still entirely within the Constitution. Because Democrats got unlucky on the retirement / death draw during this presidency doesn't mean a "coup". And by the way, it happened before.

> 1/6

Not a coup by any stretch of the imagination (no weapons) and barely a riot given the lack of destruction and violence. Also why leave out how security was reduced, that the FBI had informants and that Trump even proposed to increase security?

> Ongoing propagation of the "big lie"

I get it that you are not familiar with Bush v. Gore and how it was the big rig for years?

> and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...)

It's easy to pick a random clown in a camp and then zoom 1000x to paint a bad picture:

"The cards, featuring a seven-point plan, appear to have been made by a group called Patriots Soar, which is not connected to the organisers of CPAC"

> alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering

Gerrymandering happens in blue districts too by the way, can can only do so much (elections results still mostly 50/50 percentage wise). And the "voter suppression" are a joke when you read the details of them since the measures being implemented are the same that are found in Canada (showing ID with proof of your address, registering to vote, having a reason to vote by mail, which used to be a Democrat talking point during the Bush/Obama years by the way).

[_ykl9]

This is implying that default mail-in voting was a way to get Democrats elected in the first place.

No it isn't. Don't be obtuse.

Challenging elections integrity in the courts are what insure the process is transparent and followed in the first place.

Filing dozens of frivolous lawsuits and aggressively pressuring state government officials to help overturn election results isn't normal.

Democrats got unlucky on the retirement / death draw

https://www.npr.org/sections/death-of-ruth-bader-ginsburg/20...

[1/6 was] not a coup by any stretch of the imagination (no weapons)

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters...

I get it that you are not familiar with Bush v. Gore

Yup, this is the first I've heard of George Bush and Al Gore. Thanks for letting me know about them.

It's easy to pick a random clown in a camp and then zoom 1000x to paint a bad picture

Sure. I agree with that. I'm not claiming that this is the official platform of the GOP, simply that it's a radical and dangerous element of society that Trump and his wing of the party are actively cultivating by continuing to promote lies.

And the "voter suppression" are a joke

Sure. They didn't work in the end, but they made it a lot closer than it would have been. The new ones may work or they may not, but we shouldn't tolerate any voter suppression in America.

showing ID with proof of your address

No one is opposed to requiring an ID to vote. The For the People Act included a voter ID provision, with alternative documents such as utility bills allowable as a fallback.

If you want to require IDs without that fallback, how about we make federal voting IDs available to everyone in the country at no cost and with minimal hassle or time investment? If the intent isn't voter suppression, this should be perfectly agreeable.

[TeeMassive]

> This is implying that default mail-in voting was a way to get Democrats elected in the first place.

> No it isn't. Don't be obtuse.

Do you have more to say than "don't be obtuse"? Because it was well known that Democrats were more likely to use mail-in voting from the beginning as various polls showed and how the vote turned out Democrats as more and more mail-in votes were counted.

> Filing dozens of frivolous lawsuits and aggressively pressuring state government officials to help overturn election results isn't normal.

"Frivolous" is your opinion, not the one of the courts. And by the way multiple cases have been thrown out during Bush v. Gore, were they "frivolous" too?

> Democrats got unlucky on the retirement / death draw

> https://www.npr.org/sections/death-of-ruth-bader-ginsburg/20...

Can you actually verbalize the point you're trying to make without simply linking an opinion piece from NPR?

> [1/6 was] not a coup by any stretch of the imagination (no weapons)

> https://www.npr.org/2021/03/19/977879589/yes-capitol-rioters...

"Many of the weapons allegedly used in the riot are considered "less lethal" but are dangerous and can even be fatal, according to experts."

Again, nothing lethal enough to start an "insurrection" against armed guards.

> I get it that you are not familiar with Bush v. Gore

> Yup, this is the first I've heard of George Bush and Al Gore. Thanks for letting me know about them.

So you you know that challenging elections results and irregularities in the courts are part of the electoral process then.

> It's easy to pick a random clown in a camp and then zoom 1000x to paint a bad picture

> Sure. I agree with that. I'm not claiming that this is the official platform of the GOP, simply that it's a radical and dangerous element of society that Trump and his wing of the party are actively cultivating by continuing to promote lies.

Trump never said things that are outside of what are heard at political rallies. Things like "fighting" for a cause and "walking on X building" are fairly common.

> No one is opposed to requiring an ID to vote.

This is not true. Democrats and various pressure group have opposed it for decades now:

https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/873878423/voting-and-election...

> The For the People Act included a voter ID provision, with alternative documents such as utility bills allowable as a fallback.

Bills are not id, they're proof of address. In Canada for example (and in most other liberal democracies), we have to show an id with a picture and a proof of address (the election card or a hydro bill if it's missing).

> No one is opposed to requiring an ID to vote. The For the People Act included a voter ID provision, with alternative documents such as utility bills allowable as a fallback.

> If you want to require IDs without that fallback, how about we make federal voting IDs available to everyone in the country at no cost and with minimal hassle or time investment? If the intent isn't voter suppression, this should be perfectly agreeable.

I'm sure this would get bi-partisan support, especially amongst the moderates. Social security numbers were never meant to be IDs in the first place and they are clearly out of date now.