[Retric]

That honestly seems quite reasonable. Citizenship comes with all sorts of obligations like getting drafted and serving on juries, taxes are simply the most obvious.

On the up side you can apparently still qualify for Social Security benefits.

[FredPret]

Citizens are not assets of the state

[Retric]

It’s a reciprocal relationship with rights and obligations on both sides not ownership. For example the FBI doesn’t invoice victims or their families when it gets involved in kidnapping cases.

Capital gains are deferred without interest until an asset it sold, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t an obligation for those years.

[danuker]

> rights and obligations on both sides not ownership

I would say consequences of infringement are much worse for individual citizens than for the government.

If the government confiscates some of your money through "civil forfeiture", you then have to sue the government and prove the money was gained legally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...

On the other hand, try not filing your taxes. What happened to John McAfee might happen to you.

[Retric]

It’s not an equal relationship, but governments failing their side on wide enough scale end up failing.

[trasz]

> FBI doesn’t invoice victims

what

[Retric]

They don’t charge money to investigate crimes.

[trasz]

Just like every other civilized country. The fact that it was even mentioned suggests that for Americans it might not always be the case in some situations, which is quite frightening.

[Retric]

It’s not an issue in American. Thing is we are talking about renouncing citizenship so the comparison is to other countries.

Looking deeply at the social counteracts of other countries is really interesting because of how many different things we take for granted aren’t universal. Free speech in the US is more limited than I would like, but it gets much worse even in countries that look civilized in other ways.

[Tostino]

For investigating a crime the victim was involved with. At least that's how I interpreted GP's comment.

[FredPret]

Reciprocal relationship = either party can end it under certain circumstances. If the taxpayer wants to move, the state has no moral right to force them to stay

[geomark]

Yeah, but receiving payments can be an issue because U.S. banks won't deal with you without a U.S. address.

[walshemj]

A friend who has a US wife is in the states now to visit family and also most importantly renew her Colorado drivers license for similar reasons.

[Chris2048]

> Citizenship comes with all sorts of obligations like getting drafted and serving on juries

If you've already done those things, does the IRS pay you?

[Retric]

Obligations don’t work that way, do you get paid for paying your debts?

The personal benefit from the obligation to serve on juries is the option of being tried by a jury of your peers.

[Chris2048]

You compare obligations to debt (which do have an upfront playout) but then state there is a benefit. How does that work with debt? Why would a jury of peers be a benefit, unless you assume positive bias? How does that work with the draft?

[Retric]

If you’re paying an electric bill the benefit associated with the debt was receiving electricity. How does that work with debt? For debt like a credit card bill it’s the money you spent when buying stuff etc. If you meant taxes then it’s government services already received, for example a strong military.

Why would a jury of peers be a benefit, unless you assume positive bias? It’s an option, you don’t need to be tried by your peers so you would only pick it if it’s better than being judged by a judge. That doesn’t mean it’s a positive bias, you might assume judges have a negative bias.

How does that work with the draft? Look at all the countries that have been invaded, compare them to countries that haven’t been. That’s the benefit of a strong military and the existence of the draft is part of that.

[Chris2048]

> it’s government services already received, for example a strong military

but you no longer benefit from the military and other services abroad?

> It’s an option, you don’t need to be tried by your peers

but you are obligated to jury duty, to the extent you have to pay to leave?

> Look at all the countries that have been invaded

all all the ones that haven't? Doesn't seem like a draft is needed.