[twodave]

My hair started graying pretty much as soon as I graduated from college. It makes a lot of sense now. Around the same time, I:

- bought a house (in 2007, yeesh)

- got married

- started my first job (which at the time felt like drinking out of a fire hose)

Shortly after, my wife and I went through the stress of trying and failing to get pregnant. Then infertility treatments for several months. Then my wife had surgery. Infertility treatments no longer an option, we turned to adoption. 6 weeks later (seriously), we brought home our first child.

After that, it was like kids fell into our laps every couple of years. After the second child, I struggled with a pretty severe addiction that nearly claimed my marriage. Since then we've adopted two more. We now have kids aged 12, 9, 6 and 4.

Has it been all stress all the time? Not at all. I feel incredibly blessed to be living this life. But the hair (mostly on the sides) hasn't gone back to its normal color either, so I guess either it's genetic or there's an undercurrent of stress I've just become accustomed to.

Edit: formatting

[nus07]

That is incredibly brave of you to share that and overcome all that. I had a similar time of buying our first house, starting a new job, having a baby and then losing a parent all within a space of 3-4 months just before the pandemic lockdown started. I lost a lot of my hair instead and now have a bald spot. Also lot of junk food and alcohol. Somehow I would have liked to keep my hair even if it turned gray :)

[koheripbal]

I had a really rough 2019 & 2020 - not including the pandemic. Multiple health issues in myself and my family + financial issues + the pandemic.

I am 45. Comparing pictures my hair at 43 vs 45 is unbelievable. Almost no white hairs in 2018. Today, half my hair is white.

I had so much stress that I had to create a sleeping video playlist on Plex to drown out the nightmares and get a full night sleep.

Now most of my problems are resolved - I'd really like my black hair back. I'm skeptical that it'll return to normal naturally. Do men color their hair with products? I look ridiculous - 15 years older than I really am.

[gunapologist99]

I have been dying my hair since starting to go gray in my late teens. I like the Just For Men products.. go a bit lighter and leave it on longer to get more of the gray. It works ok -- lasts about a month. My wife prefers the dyed hair with a touch of gray and not all gray.

[bkav]

Some men do. You can dye over it and use a product like Touch of Gray to make it look more natural, as well.

[twodave]

Thanks for the kind words. The most important thing I've learned is to just take the next step. If I can figure out whatever that next step should be, then I can focus on just that and the rest doesn't stress me so much.

[jedimastert]

> Infertility treatments no longer an option, we turned to adoption. 6 weeks later (seriously), we brought home our first child.

Holy SHIT. I thought 9 months was a little short to get used to the idea of having a kid and becoming a parent, I would have had a damn BREAKDOWN if I only had 6 weeks!

Kudos to you my guy. Absolute unit.

[twodave]

Your description isn't all that different than how it actually played out, unfortunately. I usually tell new parents that the first one is by far the hardest if you value your own freedom in any way. And then of course, if you fail to come to terms with that (as I did) then the second child can definitely push you over the edge.

It wasn't until I was pretty much threatened with losing everything that I decided to change--I wish it hadn't happened that way, but I'm glad I made the choice I did.

[ipaddr]

It feels like so many people in North America are struggling with infertility.

It is one of those topics that have been deemed too taboo to talk about which is infortunate.

[thrav]

It’s talked about in small circles, but not broadly. Anecdotally, my wife and one of her friends are the only people I know who quickly conceived and had a child without issue over 30.

My very close friend and his wife gave up after years of treatments. My sister and her husband are coming up on years of unsuccessful treatments. Several of my wife’s close friends either required treatments, have lost one or more pregnancies, and/or have yet to succeed with treatments.

It’s more than enough to make you feel like there is something serious going on. There was an article recently about aggressive drops in male fertility, which might shed light.

In my mind, the other big piece is readiness / pressure. I don’t think it’s everything, but I do think there must be a huge mental component to conception. The people who are more financially stable and on the same page seem to have the easiest time.

[grawprog]

>The people who are more financially stable and on the same page seem to have the easiest time.

In my experience it's been the opposite. The people I know who are financially secure seem to struggle more to have kids. They'll go to doctors and fertility clinics and such.

On the other hand, the people I know who are not very financially secure at all have had no problems having children. Much of the time they aren't even trying, it just happens.

It seems almost like the people who feel the most pressured about having kids, the ones who are trying and stressed out about it are the ones who struggle at it.

At least in my observations anyway.

[long_time_gone]

==The people who are more financially stable and on the same page seem to have the easiest time. ==

How does this square with people getting unsuccessful treatments? Wouldn't you have to be pretty financially stable and "on the same page" to afford fertility treatments?

[thrav]

Fair point. I should’ve said relatively financially stable (which often translates to feeling poor with a certain crowd - often a point of disagreement between husband and wife) versus abundantly rich.

Funny enough, thinking more, the abundantly rich couples who easily had kids spend the least time together, as the husbands work jobs that dominate their lives.

[sangnoir]

> It’s more than enough to make you feel like there is something serious going on.

A lot of people are putting off having children until much later in their lives, in part due to how expensive raising a child is now. For a majority of people, fertility isn't exactly constant from puberty to old age/menopause.

One more 2nd/3rd order societal problem that the "invisible hand of the market" cannot possibly fix, those who'd want/need to buy that option cannot afford it at that point in their lives.

[twodave]

For us this was true until we'd experienced it and started talking about it publicly. It turns out we have a lot of friends and acquaintances who were willing to open up with us once they knew they weren't alone. Like in many other struggles, having a common bond with others makes it easier to bear.

[koheripbal]

I think we're all watching too much porn.

[voisin]

Check out the book Why We Get Sick: The Hidden Epidemic at the root of most chronic disease(0). TL;DR: Insulin resistance. There’s some great discussion about men’s and women’s fertility in there.

(0) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49207255

[chaosbutters314]

how is adoption? Did you do domestically or international? Any sage advice?

I personally rather adopt than have my own kids so I'm just curious.

[twodave]

>Any sage advice?

Probably more than you want haha.

We adopted domestically via a local agency. Our first 3 were adopted at birth, and our youngest was in and out of foster care for 5 months before his mother decided to make an adoption plan. This route is more costly than going through foster care (which can be more or less free), but much less than what some of our friends ended up paying to adopt internationally.

I would personally advise anyone adopting in the US to investigate what kind of special needs support (whether it be through Title IV-E or other programs) is available. MANY of these children have latent (if not immediate) mental health issues stemming from substance abuse (especially alcohol) that isn't always apparent at birth.

Our 12 year old struggles immensely with any kind of abstract way of thinking (including most mathematics), and our 9 year old only learned to read last year really. Neither are classified as special needs, but they really should be. The psychiatric and therapeutic care they require can be expensive, even just for reaching a diagnosis.

By the time we adopted our younger two we became a bit wiser and had them evaluated at birth. They're both classified as special needs under Title IV-E, which grants them free medical care (including things like speech/cognitive/occupational therapy and corrective surgeries, all of which we've used multiple times).

[hutzlibu]

What I experienced with the people I know, who adopted:

the most easy for you would be - if the child is as young as possible. Preferably shortly after being born.

There are of course many older children waiting for a real home - but in general they all bring their mental baggage with - so this can be really, really challenging.

[twodave]

There's a special place in my heart for people who choose to adopt older kids. It's not so much mental baggage as it is damage resulting from years of abuse and/or neglect along different axes of the child's life. There's real loss and trauma involved, and there's no way to erase it. The best you can do is help them cope and not take it personally when they lash out at you for what was done to them.

These same traumas exist in some degree even with our children adopted as infants. They each have undergone a sense of loss (to varying degrees, for sure) and have spent time questioning the events that led their birth parents to put them up for adoption.

There's also a lot of loss after the fact because the typically birth mother does not live a very stable life. Our 4 children only have 1 surviving birth mother between them at this point (we think). One has had to deal with the loss of a birth sibling. These kids have a front-row seat to the reality that life is full of pain. We put a lot of effort into teaching them that there is also an abundance of love available to them.

[hutzlibu]

I agree very much. My parents worked as foster parents and I know some people working professional in the area.

(mental baggage was a euphemism)

There is so much going on, people from normal upbringing cannot imagine (and usually do not want to imagine).

Even the children who were not abused in one way or another, how can they develope a stable mind, when they have no stable surroundings?

Dragged around back and forth from instable "parents" to foster parents to various institutions and back. And out again. And then maybe adopted one day.

I would never blame the childs. (I find it also hard to blame their parents, as they usually had a childhood like this, or went down into drugs for one reason or another - always easy to judge from the outside - and they do get judged. Usually at a time when they simply needed help and not judgment - but they don't get help, but their children taken away)

So ... like I said, it can be very, very challenging to adopt a older child. I did not wanted to scare anyone away from it. If anyone feels like this is the right thing for them - do it!

Just don't expect it will be easy.

edit: note, that my experience may be a bit biased through the foster home situation, which is especially hard, because often the parents of the kids often wanted to have their kids back - so this pool is probably the hardest. But personally I would just want to see the child and see how we feel about it, if there is a emotional connection with the child. Older children can also be easier, by beeing already very independent. You also might end up being the hotel for a distant teenager. But that also happens with "normal" kids. You never know.

[brailsafe]

You bought a house at the same time as getting your first job!? That's a hell of a lot riding on that first job working out. Obviously you figured things out, but in retrospect was that a good or bad idea?

[twodave]

Bad idea, but only because of the market timing. My wife had been out of school 4 years already otherwise we probably would have rented for a bit first. The fertility treatments, surgery and adoptions were all more financially back-breaking than even buying a house in a bad market, though. We didn’t really have savings to speak of until 3 years ago (10 years later).

[w0m]

Seriously feel this.