[throw1234651234]

What they are demonstrating is that this is a generic non-statement. It's like saying martial arts and lifting build discipline. Sure, and so do a 1000 other things, including Yoga. It's a vague non-statement.

All of these interpretations border on the occult. At the end of the day, yoga is like meditation - it needs to be clearly defined. Decoupled from all the mysticism, it's just a bunch of exercises.

India definitely had some cool fitness systems, but they are mostly lost, like their martial arts.

Until there is a clear "do y, get x", this is all overly-obfuscated to build mystique.

I.e. "lift weights 3x8 3x a week, be able to lift 1-5% more weights in 2 weeks". Very clear, very defined. None of that here with yoga.

[jariel]

I see what you're trying to get at ... but unfortunately this is not true.

Yoga is effectively Religion (you could argue 'Spiritual Philosophy').

This is not an 'interpretation' - it's literally an orthodox branch of Hinduism. [1]

Hatha Yoga - a subset - is more physically involved and it's the branch of Yoga we see in Western Yoga studios.

We really can't reduce it to a bunch of poses.

Yes, much of the 'spiritual language' is often removed, but the objective remains the same, which is putting you on the path to enlightenment.

'Calming the mind' is really just the first step of that.

By the way 'Hatha' means 'Force' in Sanksrit, and by 'Force' in this context they mean to force or the journey to Enlightenment by will, as opposed to it coming more passively, or by other practices.

Western studios can avoid using these kinds of ideas and language, but that almost renders it pointless, or maybe worse, paternalistic, in that students are not even told the true nature of what they are being taught, kind of like children.

To someone from India, it must be kind of bizarre seeing all of these Western people participating in something Indians designed for a purpose, whereupon Westerners seem to be kind of ignorant of it all.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga

[throw1234651234]

I think all of this can still be reduced to be even more practical, unless we really do classify it as religion, in which case it's reduced to "follow scripture for the sake of following scripture because it's the way". I say that without judgement, and it applies to all religions.

With that said, there is rhyme and reason to this. The physical aspect is important because you can't meditate effectively if you can't even get into a comfortable pose (and I really do mean comfortable, not convoluted) without pain. You can't focus on your breath or heartbeat if it's erratic, heavy, or you are distracted by pain, indigestion, uppers, etc. So the physical aspect can be understood as a way to facilitate deep meditation.

This ties in with your "calming the mind point". Here is where it gets shady - nobody really knows what this means. We have "let go of all thoughts, be a passive observer, lol transcendental mantras", etc. In reality, reading "Altered Traits" and other meditation books, we get that maybe, maybe it helps with willpower (frontal lobe development according to "The Willpower Instinct") and focus. I will venture that it helps with working memory, and potentially IQ-related tasks.

Extrapolating from that, we can tie in with the Egyptian concept of "not losing yourself in the afterworld" (or dreams, or every day life), by being engaged, aware, and being able to recognize and analyze reality, or perception thereof if we get into Buddhism.

What that really leads to, in an enlightment sense, is very unclear.

Note that I went off on a BUNCH of tangents, but all these systems really try to tie together into some whole, which seems to be similar to what I described, but it's not clearly stated anywhere.

I promise you I am not arguing to argue, but I have been looking for an answer here for a long time, and I find none. Again, unless it's that "it's religion", in which case "that's that". On that note, these convos are difficult because there is no coherent system, but people seem to view them based on the system they are coming from - Yoga, Buddhism, breath work, lucid dreaming, whatever. That's too isolationist imo.

[nprateem]

The GP literally defines yoga "This is effectively the point of 'Yoga' in it's greater sense..."

There are yoga teachers (modern and old) who teach a clear "do y, get x" system. Patanjali, author of the Yoga Sutras outlined a clear progression if you understand the language. Knowledgeable modern teachers have updated the language. See my other comment on a recommended author.

The very clear progression is:

1. Practice the postures (asana) until you can comfortably remain in one of the seated meditational practices for an hour or so. This is a prerequisite to being able to enter meditation and requires hip flexibility. The postures also provide a baseline level of fitness, relax the body and mind prior to the next steps.

2. Pranayama - breathing exercises. The aim is to balance the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems which apparently leads to a stilling of the mind. Slow breathing also reduces mental chatter and encourages relaxation, another prerequisite for meditation under normal circumstances. The GP mentions "Kundalini fire", and learning to generate heat internally via the breath (or breath suspension) is cited in many traditions as one of the fastest ways of bringing about changes in the body that facilitate meditation.

3. Meditation - entering a "mind awake, body asleep" state. This requires keeping the body motionless and the spine erect (hence the requirement for the seated meditation posture) and is achieved by turning the senses inward to the extent that you become pretty much oblivous to the outside world. This may be accompanied (or preceded) by the breath becoming shallow to the point of being almost imperceptible, and the body stiffening and you feeling detached from it as if it's a hollow shell. Once this happens various internal phenomena may occur, and they can be used as objects of meditation and may be in the realm of mystical experiences.

Goal-oriented people can be given goals. But since most people aren't able to harness the full power of their subconscious it seems rather pointless to have a goal-oriented mentality. That rather flies in the face of trying to achieve states of non-attachment which seem to help reach these levels that are dependent on deep relaxation. That said, some people do provide certain guidelines in terms of numbers of hours of practice per day to help expedite the process.

[throw1234651234]

See my response to jariel - we are on the same page until "may be in the realm of mystical experiences" - that's where it all gets shady and unclear.

The only part I seem to disagree on / misunderstand is the absolute requirement of sitting w/ upright spine. Seems to me that the real pre-req is a comfortable, stable position of some sort.

As you can tell, I am not into Hinduism/Buddhism, but I try to derive value from any possible source, but to derive it, I need to define it. While I understand that you can't really describe some things, we are getting into "can't describe AT ALL, not even in some vague sense" when we get into mystical experiences.

I find this strange, since I can describe the value of things like lucid dreams, full relaxation, etc, at least to some degree.

[nprateem]

Well that's the mystery isn't it? Pretty much every tradition I've ever looked into, or bio I've read of someone who went deep was that it's not possible to put the really deep experiences into words. So it will have to be unclear unless you have firsthand experience.

> "...requirement of sitting w/ upright spine"

TBH I think that's a traditional thing - I think it really facilitates proper movement of the ribcage without slouching so you're able to take full breaths, without being so relaxed as going to sleep. I have experienced interesting things happening while on the borderline of sleep so this may not be an absolute requirement.

[throw1234651234]

Thanks for reply - I don't have much to add. I think we pretty much agree at the end of the day.

[browningstreet]

This may or may not be what you’re pointing at, but I’m a goal oriented person. Running and strength training I practice with metrics, programs, and progressions. I love it and have made great strides. I’m a state record holding weight lifter. I’m also a secular Buddhist and I meditate.

But I had a moment about ten years ago. It came from nowhere, though there was a lead up. I was doing something, relaxing but vigorous, and I felt all my self-imposed limiting thoughts and beliefs drop away. It happened in an instant and there was a mental and physical manifestation of the moment, it was tremendous. It lasted about 20 minutes and then it changed again.

I remember those 20 minutes very clearly. It upended everything I felt about my existence. It was like a drug trip, but not. It may have been a blink of enlightenment, though I wouldn’t dare to characterize it as such. It’s hard to define, but it’s been defined in all kinds of literate.

I’m not trying to recapture that, but I do try and live my life with the knowledge that it’s out there. Perhaps it can be approached, perhaps it can return again, in an instant. It came during a doing, that much is clear. I’ll keep doing.