[nprateem]

The GP literally defines yoga "This is effectively the point of 'Yoga' in it's greater sense..."

There are yoga teachers (modern and old) who teach a clear "do y, get x" system. Patanjali, author of the Yoga Sutras outlined a clear progression if you understand the language. Knowledgeable modern teachers have updated the language. See my other comment on a recommended author.

The very clear progression is:

1. Practice the postures (asana) until you can comfortably remain in one of the seated meditational practices for an hour or so. This is a prerequisite to being able to enter meditation and requires hip flexibility. The postures also provide a baseline level of fitness, relax the body and mind prior to the next steps.

2. Pranayama - breathing exercises. The aim is to balance the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems which apparently leads to a stilling of the mind. Slow breathing also reduces mental chatter and encourages relaxation, another prerequisite for meditation under normal circumstances. The GP mentions "Kundalini fire", and learning to generate heat internally via the breath (or breath suspension) is cited in many traditions as one of the fastest ways of bringing about changes in the body that facilitate meditation.

3. Meditation - entering a "mind awake, body asleep" state. This requires keeping the body motionless and the spine erect (hence the requirement for the seated meditation posture) and is achieved by turning the senses inward to the extent that you become pretty much oblivous to the outside world. This may be accompanied (or preceded) by the breath becoming shallow to the point of being almost imperceptible, and the body stiffening and you feeling detached from it as if it's a hollow shell. Once this happens various internal phenomena may occur, and they can be used as objects of meditation and may be in the realm of mystical experiences.

Goal-oriented people can be given goals. But since most people aren't able to harness the full power of their subconscious it seems rather pointless to have a goal-oriented mentality. That rather flies in the face of trying to achieve states of non-attachment which seem to help reach these levels that are dependent on deep relaxation. That said, some people do provide certain guidelines in terms of numbers of hours of practice per day to help expedite the process.

[throw1234651234]

See my response to jariel - we are on the same page until "may be in the realm of mystical experiences" - that's where it all gets shady and unclear.

The only part I seem to disagree on / misunderstand is the absolute requirement of sitting w/ upright spine. Seems to me that the real pre-req is a comfortable, stable position of some sort.

As you can tell, I am not into Hinduism/Buddhism, but I try to derive value from any possible source, but to derive it, I need to define it. While I understand that you can't really describe some things, we are getting into "can't describe AT ALL, not even in some vague sense" when we get into mystical experiences.

I find this strange, since I can describe the value of things like lucid dreams, full relaxation, etc, at least to some degree.

[nprateem]

Well that's the mystery isn't it? Pretty much every tradition I've ever looked into, or bio I've read of someone who went deep was that it's not possible to put the really deep experiences into words. So it will have to be unclear unless you have firsthand experience.

> "...requirement of sitting w/ upright spine"

TBH I think that's a traditional thing - I think it really facilitates proper movement of the ribcage without slouching so you're able to take full breaths, without being so relaxed as going to sleep. I have experienced interesting things happening while on the borderline of sleep so this may not be an absolute requirement.

[throw1234651234]

Thanks for reply - I don't have much to add. I think we pretty much agree at the end of the day.

[browningstreet]

This may or may not be what you’re pointing at, but I’m a goal oriented person. Running and strength training I practice with metrics, programs, and progressions. I love it and have made great strides. I’m a state record holding weight lifter. I’m also a secular Buddhist and I meditate.

But I had a moment about ten years ago. It came from nowhere, though there was a lead up. I was doing something, relaxing but vigorous, and I felt all my self-imposed limiting thoughts and beliefs drop away. It happened in an instant and there was a mental and physical manifestation of the moment, it was tremendous. It lasted about 20 minutes and then it changed again.

I remember those 20 minutes very clearly. It upended everything I felt about my existence. It was like a drug trip, but not. It may have been a blink of enlightenment, though I wouldn’t dare to characterize it as such. It’s hard to define, but it’s been defined in all kinds of literate.

I’m not trying to recapture that, but I do try and live my life with the knowledge that it’s out there. Perhaps it can be approached, perhaps it can return again, in an instant. It came during a doing, that much is clear. I’ll keep doing.