[bookmarkable]

Love VW, smog scandals aside, but is silly to mention the ID.4 and the Beetle together. The latter is arguably the most important car ever made and had a multi-decade run as such. The other may be a decent selling electric, and is certainly important to VW, but it is a tax break away from being the same price as the Model Y.

[ObsoleteNerd]

The real "Beetle of EVs" will be something that is priced down around the Honda Civic, Mazda 3, etc. AUD$30k (~USD$20k) or so. The first major brand to come out with an EV comparable to that class of car, with local warranty/servicing/etc, just like the Beetle was then or the Civic/3/Golf are now, will be the one that gets true adoption. Until then it's just a "rich person's toy".

[ghaff]

For all the counter-culture nostalgia, the Beetle was mostly about being cheap. And, of yeah, somewhat by being fairly unsafe even relative to the fairly lax standards of the time.Furthermore, depending on one's situation an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do.

[johannes1234321]

> an EV is often a second car at this point unless you don't really need to get out of charger range or are willing to rent when you do.

That seems to be a cultural point. For many people I see an EV is actually beneficial over a fossil fuel car: They don't have to go to the gas station ever. Saving that detour every now and then, but simply commute and do the groceries. Longer trips aren't done by car anyways. But that of course requires a garage with power, which many in the cities don't have ...

[brewdad]

The sticking point for me is the in-between trips of 200-300 miles. We live ~80 miles from the coast and ~100 miles from the mountains. Depending on the specifics of the trip, add another 20 miles each way for local roads to a specific trailhead or beach.

If there were charge points at my destination, I wouldn't think twice. Since there aren't and really aren't any along the way (maybe one or two chargers for either trip) range anxiety is real. For us, a gas car is a must but an electric will probably be our next "second" car. Of course, we may just forego the second car altogether and stick to one vehicle instead.

[pkolaczk]

Here in Poland, if you charged at a charging station, it would cost you twice MORE than refueling a classic HEV, and it would also take longer - so overall less convenient. If you don't plan to charge it mostly at home, it will never pay off.

[skolos]

We sold both of our gas cars and got Tesla (don’t need two cars right now). We are doing more road trips (1k miles or more) right now than ever. Teslas are awesome on long drives (mainly due to autopilot).

[protomyth]

Yep. My Mom, like many others of her era, bought one as a first car because it was cheap enough. Given some stories, it's build quality was not the greatest but it kept going.

[BoorishBears]

In a perfect world the 2nd generation Volt would have been the Beetle of EVs

People who don't understand ICEs go "Worst of both worlds!!!! EV and ICE reliability problems!!!"

ICEs can be insanely efficient when operating at peak efficiency and incredibly reliable with low power demands

Volt maintenance was actually less involved than Tesla's with their required yearly service.

[bubblesorting]

I am _really_ hoping the ID 3 will be roughly the cost of a GTI, but it's looking more like the cost of a Golf R.

Oh well, maybe in a few more years.

[twobitshifter]

The model Y is 49k, this is 40k before the 7500 tax credit. So the model Y is 20% more expensive before the credit. The credit makes the Y 16,500 more.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/id4/2022/2021-vol...

> As mentioned earlier, the rear-drive ID4 Pro model starts at $39,995, with the ID4 AWD Pro model checking in at $43,695 to start when it launches later next year. Both of those prices are before a potential federal tax credit of $7,500 is applied, however. There are just two options for the ID4 Pro at launch—a Statement Package and a Gradient Package.

[ogre_codes]

You can get the Model Y for $40k for the moment anyhow, just not from their web order form.

Both the base Model Y and the ID.4 have about 80 miles less range than the Long Range Model Y which is the $50k one.

[colordrops]

How is the ID.4 software and charging network?

[clouddrover]

You can use A Better Routeplanner to plan out some road trips in the ID.4 (and other EVs). It's a good way to see if a particular EV will be practical for you:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

[jasonv]

It’s VWs own argument. The Beetle was “1”. The Golf was “2”. The ID.3 is their third generation people car.

[marshmallow_12]

exactly, cars as far i can see are going downhill (perhaps not literally). I fail to understand how anyone can genuinely see EV as a viable alternative to ICE when they cost so much and are inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters. (i think tesla model y is an amazing car, just severely hamstrung)

[tzs]

The article says at 11 kW it charges in 7.5 hours. That's $7.75 worth of electricity for me. Gasoline over the last year has averaged $2.56/gallon for me.

The article says it gets 250 miles on a charge. To get 250 miles from an ICE car on $7.75 worth of gasoline, that ICE car would need to get 82.6 miles/gallon.

The EV should also require much less routine maintenance than an ICE car.

For a heck of a lot of people, fuel cost per mile and the amount and cost of routine maintenance are among the most important metrics.

[jug]

Yes, cost of ownership (unpredicted or not) ought to be much lower with an EV. I’d love to finally move to electric but my personal main problem is that it only really looks like a viable option where I live for house owners due to lack of infrastructure for the many, many people living in apartments.

[Triv888]

If you pay $17,000 more fore the electric car, it would take many years to pay for itself... maybe too many.

[Triv888]

Maybe the battery would need to get replaced by then...

[marshmallow_12]

depends on how you use your car. Lots of the cost benefits will be swallowed up by the higher price tag. Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE. I think its an objective fact that electric cars still have a very long way to catch up.

[natch]

>for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE.

Either you are ignorant and unjustifiably overconfident in your opinions,

- or -

I am living in a simulation and the many long road trips I have done in an EV have all just been an illusion.

[marshmallow_12]

Most probably i am ignorant and unjustifiably overconfident. I shall have to humbly reconsider my position.

[clouddrover]

> Also, for any long distance driving, you will need to hire an ICE

Why? There are many CCS DC chargers in the world and the number is growing month-by-month. It's true that some areas aren't built out yet, but many areas already are and new chargers are going in all the time.

Try out some road trips with a VW ID.4 on A Better Routeplanner. See how you go:

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

[pkolaczk]

If you assume using public chargers, then the cost-per-mile calculation needs to be updated, because electricity prices at the charging stations are much higher than the cost of electricity at home. Here where I live, in Poland, the difference can be up to 3 times. In this case HEV is actually much cheaper to run than an EV.

[Dylan16807]

It's objective fact that it will take a lot of improvement before an electric car is equivalent or better in every way. But that's not a very fair standard for "catching up".

[serpix]

The only thing fossil cars have remaining is range and charging speed and I suspect is only a few years to go. Everything else is in another league.

[ChuckNorris89]

And the ever lacking charging infrastructure in the cities.

Where I live in Europe all who own cars in the city have them street parked in front or around their apartment buildigs.

How will they all be charged if everyone would switch to electric?

Plaster all the streets or sidewalks with charging stations?

How will the existing power lines handle the extra strain? (Spoiler alert: they can't)

Who will pay for building and maintaining all this new charging infrastructure?

These are concerns that are somehow never considered yet they're the main bottlenecks for the future of mass EV adoption in the cities.

[greedo]

How well do the batteries hold up in cold weather? I live where it gets pretty cold and I worry about shrinking range, especially when using the heater.

[Dylan16807]

Meeting range and price at the same time is going to be pretty difficult for a while.

[ogre_codes]

> inferior to IC by almost every metric that matters.

??? Maybe you've missed the memo?

Acceleration? EVs win.

Cabin Noise? EVs win.

Maintenance? EVs win.

Cost of driving? EVs win.

ICE vehicles win in exactly 1 scenario: Being able to fuel up quickly on road trips greater than 300 miles.

[pkolaczk]

Initial price tag: ICEs and HEVs win by a large margin

Acceleration: depends, not all EVs are Teslas; additionally this is a moot point, because we're not comparing race cars, and you'd be blocked by traffic anyways most of the time. You also won't save any time from faster accelerating, because you'll lose a lot more for charging.

Cabin noise: only in city driving, on highway most of noise comes from road and wind; HEVs are almost as good in city driving, because of driven carefully they use ICE only while accelerating.

Cost of driving: debatable, depends on the world region and electricity prices; the cost of driving 100km is lower in a HEV or diesel than an EV charged from a public fast-charger, at least in many regions of Europe

[ogre_codes]

> Initial price tag: ICEs and HEVs win by a large margin

Teslas compete quite well in terms of features and performance with other cars in its price range. If you aren't looking for a high performance car with luxury affordances, then you are out of luck. But if you are shopping for a $40k+ car, the Teslas compete quite well.

Tesla has been rapidly stealing market share from BMW, Mercedes, and other luxury brands for the past few years. This is why over the past 3 years ICE manufacturers are suddenly taking EVs far more seriously. As Tesla has moved down-market, they've stolen share at every step.

With the Cybertruck and Tesla's coming $25k car coming down the pike, they are going to have cars in most every market in the US. And the Cybertruck is price and feature competitive with other 4 door trucks.

If the rumors that the US is going to restore subsidies for Tesla, then thing will turn quite lopsided against ICE vehicles quickly.

> Cabin noise: only in city driving, on highway most of noise comes from road and wind;

Luxury cars which are as expensive as the Tesla have done a tremendous job isolating the engine noises. But you are claiming ICE cars are quiet and "win by a large margin" on price, and in that category, things aren't even close. As soon as the grade gets over 5% or you need to pass, the 4 banger in that $30k Civic is making itself known.

> the cost of driving 100km is lower in a HEV or diesel

I love how EVs have to compete favorably against every aspect of every non EV. Diesels and HEVs are not much less expensive than EVs. Diesels are particularly loud.

EVs are obviously far more interesting when you can charge them at home at lower power rates. That said, here in the states anyhow, charging my Tesla from 0 to 100% at a Supercharger costs less than half what it costs to fill my Subaru for a similar amount of milage.

[pkolaczk]

Fair point about Tesla. Basically you have to pay a lot for a car with such performance, so the price of battery vs the price of a powerful enough really big ICE is attractive. But that's still a niche of the market, most people don't buy cars in this price range. Tesla might have premium performance and nice handling but is still not comparable to established luxury brands in other areas like quality of assembly and materials, so it is not 100% fair comparing the price.

> Diesels and HEVs are not much less expensive than EVs.

Not yet, at least not in Europe. HEVs are very close to ICEVs now, particularly when comparing to a car with automatic transmission or a diesel. But EVs of the same make are typically 30%-50% more expensive, if not additionally donated by government programs or not getting any preferred taxation. That's why they got popular more in countries that offered big donations / tax discounts (e.g. Norway).

Example: 2021 Hyundai Ionic Hybrid costs $24k, but a fully electric version starts at $33k. That's over 30% more. I could buy gasoline for over 15 years of driving for that.

[ogre_codes]

I think fundamentally ICE vehicles have lots more choice right now. Tesla only competes in a few small segments.

At the price points they are competing in, Tesla has a competitive price offering (particularly if you are looking for performance). But there is a huge price umbrella below the base M3.

I'm not sure other EVs can say the same. The Bolt is in this weird territory where it's well priced for an EV, but it's not particularly well priced otherwise. Likewise the Nissan Leaf. I haven't seen or dealt with the VW.

It is very shrewd of Tesla to stick to price points where they can compete effectively. Focusing on places where they can sell vehicles which are competitive on merits allows them to sell vehicles as quickly as they produce them.

[blake1]

EVs will have cheaper up-front costs within 3 years for a in-city car, and by 2030 for longer-range models, according to most honest research.

They are already cheaper for TCO, unless you add the artificial constraint that it is only charged at a “public fast-charger...in Europe.”

Biggest issue is cost of level 2 home chargers and apartment resident charging.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV_cost...

[sunstone]

Sure but this is almost entirely due to the cost of batteries which are steadily coming down in price. How much longer do you think ICE being cheaper will last? My view is, once Musk gets his 4680 battery factories up to speed it'll be all over for ICE. Call it five years max.

[pkolaczk]

This, but also faster charging and abundance of chargers is needed. I can drive an ICEV / HEV / PHEV anywhere in Europe and refueling is no problem. I can't do that with an EV. And even if I find a charging station, it might be all busy and then what - go to another one or just wait half an hour or more until someone finishes charging.

[tonyedgecombe]

Initial price tag doesn't matter as much as you might think. Most people lease their cars, they will be trading off extra costs on the lease for lower fuel costs.

[pkolaczk]

As I said, lower fuel costs is quite debatable and heavily depends on the region and what you will use the car for. If you can't charge it at home like many people living in dense city areas, or if you drive long distances, then you'll have to use public chargers which are much more expensive. Initially in Poland when almost nobody had EVs these chargers were free, now they are 2x-6x more expensive than charging at home and in this case ICEs are actually cheaper.

If you drive short distances only and you do have a garage, then charging at home will work for you, but then you might not get high enough mileage to offset the initial price difference.

Additionally the deprecation is higher on EVs (probably due to concerns about the battery durability) so that would be also included in the lease.

[ogre_codes]

Yeah, currently the experience with an EV varies greatly based on locale. Some of this will remain indefinitely—there will likely always be homes where parking with chargers is unavailable. Some of it depends on infrastructure investment.

> Additionally the deprecation is higher on EVs (probably due to concerns about the battery durability) so that would be also included in the lease.

Teslas retain their value exceptionally well.

[tonyedgecombe]

Poland does seem to be a laggard on EV's, I seem to remember reading that the UK has thirty times as many public charging points as Poland.

[hetspookjee]

Driving characteristics are an argument for the sporty drivers as well.

[grecy]

Elon said the Model 3 would be quicker than a BMW M3 and have better handling. He said it would "beat anything in it's class on the track"

Not content to believe him, Top Gear put it to the test. See for yourself:

https://www.topgear.com/videos/top-gear-tv/tesla-model-3-vs-...

(Also, the Performance Model 3 had an over the air update to make it faster since this was filmed, and added track mode)

[ogre_codes]

That's a fun video. Notably, I think every one of the cars it's pitted against cost much more than the Tesla. So this idea that Teslas are expensive compared to their peers doesn't hold water. The Mercedes that beat it in the 1/2 mile cost a whopping $160k and none of the other cars were even close in the quarter mile.

[laut]

The Mercedes AMG C 63 S costs USD $76,200 (MSRP) in the US according to https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/c-class/sedan/c63ws

[hetspookjee]

I believe that without doubt. I'm more referring to the organic nature of an ICE. You have the noises, the vibrations and power delivery curve and manual shifting. Regarding spreadsheet specs, an electric vehicle is better in almost every aspect. But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs

[sunstone]

So an ICE is better than electric in much the same sense that a horse is better than an ICE.

[ogre_codes]

> But in emotional value I believe there is still a tiny spot reserved for ICEs

It is indeed tiny. People like to hear car engines rev at a car show or race track. Most of those same people don't want to have anything to do with those same sounds in their daily driver. Car manufacturers spend billions isolating the driver and the passengers from engine noises, vibrations, and in particular smells.

[com2kid]

Number of times I've taken my car over 200 miles in a single day in the last decade: 3.

What range problems?

[natch]

But that’s the wrong argument when electric cars are perfectly capable of taking long road trips, if you choose one with a good fast charging network.

[CogitoCogito]

I’m pretty ignorant of electric cars, but are you saying that different cars have different charging networks? There isn’t something standardized like with gas stations? Or do you mean that charging stations can charge whatever, because they support different types like we currently do at gas stations regarding diesel vs gasoline as well as different octane ratings? The former sounds incredibly wasteful. The latter isn’t that bad I guess.

[Zhenya]

You honestly haven't done a 2 hour drive to a hiking/biking/winery destination more than 3 times in 10(!!) years?

[com2kid]

I live in the pacific northwest.

30 minutes to all those places. :)

Heck a good electric bike can get me to half of them.

I go camping yearly but normally with my friend who takes his minivan. Even then only 1 of the trips has been over 200 miles away.

Seattle is awesome for a number of reasons, half of those reasons involve how close Seattle is to outdoor activities.

When on vacation using a rental I've driven way over 250 miles at a time, but I'm not counting that against use cases for my primary vehicle.

[bigwheeler]

I’ve driven 10,000 miles since Christmas, just for fun/recreation.

[Dylan16807]

So 155 per day on average?

Fair that you wouldn't want a 200 mile range, but either 250 or 300 miles of range could serve you pretty well!

[tonyedgecombe]

I think you are an outlier.

[ericd]

What are those metrics they’re inferior on? Model Y seems like an amazing car, period.

[marshmallow_12]

um... Range? Charging time, power to weight, range, cost, also range. Those are the most important things i look for in a car.

[Zanni]

I traded in an Audi TTS for my Tesla Model 3 Performance. The Model 3 has better range (300 miles vs. 200), faster charge time for my use case (I plug it in overnight and never have to visit a gas station), better performance, more storage capacity and a vastly superior media/navigation system. The Audi had a nicer steering wheel and slightly nicer seats. I loved my Audi but the Model 3 is better in almost every way. No contest.

[kwhitefoot]

An ice car with only 200 mile range? I don't think I have ever had a car with so little range in 45 years of driving. And that includes a petrol 5 litre V8 Chevy van. My 2015 Tesla S 70D does about that.

[sjwright]

If you need a cheap economy car OR travel extreme distances every day OR if you routinely drive at speeds in excess of 150km/h (90mph) OR if you are unable to charge at home, then electric is probably not going to be for you any time soon. But for everyone else, electric wins your categories.

Charging time: ICE cars take about 5 to 10 minutes to detour to a fuelling station. Electric cars take about 5 to 10 seconds to plug in when you arrive at home.

Power-to-weight: Due to instant torque, most modern electric cars feel a lot faster than their numbers suggest. But sure, if you're in the market for an MX-5, pure electric isn't for you.

Cost: You care about power-to-weight so you're clearly not interested in economy cars. If you want high performance and good range, Tesla models tend to be excellent value relative to their 0–100 times. For most people, cost is still quite high, but this is a relatively short-term problem which will solve itself as manufacturing capacity scales up.

Range: Unlike ICE cars, you wake up every morning with a 'full' electric car. The latest models from VW, Tesla etc have ample range for most people. Unless you spend more than half your day on the road, this isn't a concern.

[ogre_codes]

When you are bitching about EVs and start talking power to weight ratios... it's clear you haven't done your homework. My Model Y is easily the best car I've ever driven in terms of performance, and I didn't even pony up for the fast one.

It takes me 10 seconds to charge on my way into the house so no stop at the gas station.

Range is better than the VW I used to drive, not as good as my Subaru so I'd call it a push. I haven't done any long trips where I really try to nurse the gas so it's hard to say exactly where it lands though.

At a supercharger station, it costs $20 to "Fill the tank", at home, it's half that. But I guess cheap as hell to run isn't in your metrics.

[ericd]

Power to weight ratio is pretty great, no? The acceleration times in the usable speed ranges seems to imply that, at least. I agree that the cost is on the high side, but in terms of utility, it seems pretty great - excellent cargo space, optional 7 seats in a small car for when you really need to carry a couple more, panoramic glass roof. And in terms of charging time, for anyone with the ability to charge at hom, I expect that the lifetime sum of total time spent waiting for a charge will be a good bit lower than time spent navigating to and sitting at gas stations, since you’re not waiting for it while it’s charging overnight.

[natch]

Against other EVs Tesla wins in all of those, although some people are confused by the up front cost and are ignorant about how the car saves you money.

Against ICE, some ICE cars have longer range but it’s not any kind of issue as long as you are in the developed world since the charging networks are so great and only getting better.

[mc32]

Added weight is an underappreciated problem. Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants --going back to natural rubber isn't an option either...

[ogre_codes]

> Heavier cars mean more tire wear. More tire wear means more pollutants

As if the tiny amount of additional tire wear is going to create as much pollution as burning petrol and keeping the engine lubricated with oil.

[adrianN]

EVs tend to use the brakes less and of course there are no pollutants from combustion. I'd really like to see an indepth comparison of how much pollutants EVs produce locally vs. ICEs.