[adnzzzzZ]

I disagree with this notion. The primary reason why Factorio doesn't feel unethical or exploitative is because the kind of addictiveness it exploits is one that uses your brain, whereas the kind of addictiveness these "unethical" games exploit is one that feels more dumb and low brow. It has nothing to do with it being win-win like you mentioned.

There's this bias where games that are extremely addicting but that appeal to intelligence, the perceived most important trait in our society currently, are OK, whereas games that are addicting and appeal to other traits, like the ability to do the same thing over and over, are morally wrong. Both types of appeal are manipulative in the same way, but one is cast as morally wrong because it doesn't appeal to what the elites in our society (such as you, dear HN reader) value.

[TeMPOraL]

And I disagree with your take. I've played a lot of videogames in my life, plenty of them feeling "more dumb and low brow".

For instance, as a kid, I've spent some ridiculous amount of hours playing Unreal Tournament (and to the lesser degree, Quake 3 Arena) - some of it with friends in an Internet cafe, but a lot in single-player mode too. I'd consider these two games to be pretty addictive for their time. But they were addictive because they were fun. Not because they tried to lure me in with skinner boxes, keep me in with time-gating, and monetize me with microtransactions.

Or, more recently, I've spent countless of hours playing 2048. At some point it became my go-to activity for every moment I wasn't actively concentrating on something. It may sound like an "intellectual" game, but in reality it's pretty braindead once you get the gist of it. You could probably say that the time I spent with it was unhealthy, but again, at no point it tried to be anything but fun. There were no features in there designed with exploitation in mind.

Or, roguelikes and roguelites. Between Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead and RimWorld, I'm probably approaching some 1000 hours of total play time. Both are fun and addictive, in the positive sense. Neither has any of the addictive money-making features in them.

I could go on. But the point is, I maintain that ill intent is a better way to categorize games than "addictiveness". And I hate to invoke the "you'll know it when you see it" cliche, but the difference between the games designed to be fun and the games designed to milk you is glaringly obvious. Entertainment has value, and good entertainment tends to be addictive (it's pretty much a tautology). But it takes more than good entertainment to create a problem.

[adnzzzzZ]

Well, I still disagree. I've also played lots of games in my life so I also think I know what I'm talking about.

You view roguelikes and roguelites as positively addicting because of your personality and the fact that those games test for the traits you care about, not because they're objectively better than other games that focus on another trait.

You probably don't view MMORPGs where the entire point of the game is just grinding mindlessly for months or years as positively addicting because your personality isn't the type that would like that, but there are tons of people in the world who aren't like you and like the average HN reader who would agree with you.

I've written more extensively about this before so I feel like keeping arguing here might be pointless, but in case you're curious for a more full version of the argument: https://github.com/a327ex/blog/issues/66

[yomly]

I mean there's an old anecdote about how Chess was seen as dangerously addictive.

In any case, I think making something that is emergently addictive or addictive because it is fun is different from engineering something to be addictive by liberally lifting from all the years of research that went into slot machine design.

I don't know whether you frequent casinos but if you sit in the slot area for a while then compare that to big budget mobile p2w games (including Clash Royale which is actually also fun) is quite alarming. There are so many design similarities that lootbox games are basically slot machines without needing to pay out money...

[scott_w]

MMORPGs are only seen as an issue to the degree they cause harm. It’s nothing to do with being “low brow” but entirely down to the subscription model. Keep the customer logging in to keep the subscription revenue rolling.

If this is done by being fun and enjoyable, and the developer doesn’t cross the line into preying on addictive behaviour, no problem.

If the developer implements mechanics that are designed to “hook” the player to the detriment of the enjoyment and their health, then we have a problem.

[TeMPOraL]

It's good that you wrote your thoughts in a longer form, and thanks for sharing it. It's an interesting argument, and one I will think about more, but based on my first reading, I find it lacking. I feel the part about Gacha Games doesn't fit well in this framework. Also, I find it hard to categorize my personality along the lines you described:

- Static/dynamic typing: borders -- I prefer static typing to dynamic typing; this is a change from preference for dynamic typing in the past; today, I find "mixing and matching" of types to almost always cause runtime errors, not new insights

- Engines/frameworks: no borders -- I dislike frameworks in general, gamedev or otherwise, I much prefer to compose libraries myself

- Roguelike/Roguelite: ??? -- I don't care about a strict definition, but having a somewhat clear definition is useful for managing expectations

- Progression/No progression: ??? -- I like both

- Grinding/No grinding: no borders -- Grinding is boring, though I'll do it if you hang a nice enough carrot in front of me

- Gacha Games: no borders -- As expressed above, I consider them immoral, and that has less to do with mechanics and more with why they're employed. That said, I don't think Gacha mechanics have any sort of special borders compared to many other fun, well-defined mechanics.

- Professions: ??? -- My professional software dev is mostly a borderful experience, but I also do gamedev on the side...

- Easy Modes: ??? -- I don't see how it fits in your argument at all, or how is it even a topic at all (except for competitive multiplayer games, about which I don't care all that much). Most games have "easy mode" in form of a wide variety of cheats to choose from.

It seems I'm leaning a bit towards "no borders", but then I think this borders/no borders split isn't really "carving nature at its joints". It does not factor personality cleanly.

Also, as additional objection, I think you could use this argument to justify getting people addicted to gambling as a matter of "personality difference". I feel this explains too much.

[everdrive]

>Not because they tried to lure me in with skinner boxes, keep me in with time-gating, and monetize me with microtransactions.

I'm familiar with all of these except for "time-gating." What is it?

[TeMPOraL]

I'm not sure if this is the correct industry term, but 'wongarsu used it and explained it here[0], so I just picked it up. Basically, it's forcing you to wait hours to do the next step in the game - so that you'll start scheduling your day around the game.

--

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26076702

[bluefirebrand]

Time gating is basically any kind of mechanic that requires real-world time to pass before progression can happen.

Mobile games use time gating for "lives" or "energy" or something so you can only play so much then you have to wait. Then they try and get you to spend real money to circumvent the time gate.

MMOs use time gating to slow player progression, with mechanics where you can only earn certain rewards once per day or once per week or something. It slows players becoming too powerful too quickly, or from completing their collections too quickly or from grinding the new rare drop in the first week.

This type of stuff is even creeping into other types of games, unfortunately. Especially with every game nowadays being an online game, even the single player ones.

[willis936]

Wube is not predatory. The actions of a benevolent developer is much different than the actions of a predatory one.

If you want to see a company that really walks the line: look at Digital Extremes.

[seanwilson]

Is there a better word to use than "addictive" to describe the brainy one over the unethical one?

[vharuck]

Enthralling

Engrossing

Captivating

[adnzzzzZ]

If there is one it shouldn't be used. Both types of games are addicting in fundamentally the same way. The only thing that differs is the main trait which each game is using as its primary host. The "unethical" type of game is as unethical as the other, which means they're either both very unethical or both very not unethical, depending on how you want to look at it.

[seanwilson]

Addictive for games can just be shorthand for "you want to play it again and again". I don't see anything wrong with it when there isn't a more appropriate shorthand to use, except when used with games that are designed to make you pay more and more to play.