[noodlesUK]

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience.

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

[ornornor]

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here.

The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.”

I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I have tried to complain to the regulator... None of that worked. Most of the time, they basically say something like “kiss my ass”

I don’t know how to deal with EU companies. I was always getting what I wanted in North America by using the organized professional method. I’m at a complete loss in Europe. Any advice?

[sverhagen]

The US system is based on liability and the threat of legal action. The European system is based on their regulatory framework. If you have a complaint that is clearly managed within that framework (my laundry machine spontaneously broke down within the statutory warranty period) they'll comply, else, yeah, good luck. I moved in the other direction (to the US) and I'm amazed when my wife gets a $50 little blender replaced at Macy's after we worked it to its limits for three or four years. For all the complaining about how things aren't how they used to be anymore, the US is great on customer service.

[technothrasher]

Sometimes the regulatory route works in the US. We had our main business phone line go down and Verizon customer service basically shrugged their shoulders and said there was nothing they could do and no way to escalate. One call to the state regulator and not only did they fix the phone line within a couple hours, they begged us to tell them what they could do to make the regulatory complaint go away. We told them we'd like access to FIOS but had always been told fiber wasn't on our street and wasn't going to be. Three weeks later, fiber was run down the entire street and we were hooked up to gigabit internet. That roll out can't have been cheap for them.

[owenmarshall]

When I was a youngster growing up with dialup internet we had a problem: when it rained, static filled the line and the internet died.

The repair tech sympathetically said that he was trying, but their policy at the time said the interference was at acceptable levels for voice and he wasn’t able to convince his management to trace the problem upstream and replace the line to fix one rural customer’s service.

On his fourth trip out he slipped dad a post it note with a phone number. It was the state public utility commission. My dad called on Thursday.

That Saturday, the district manager knocks on our door. He informs us of how sorry the entire Bell family is for the trouble we’ve had, that they have teams tracing lines from the central office to our house and will have the problem identified and fixed by Sunday, and that we will receive a rather significant discount to our bill over the next year to help “make it right”. His only ask was that we call the PSC and let them know if AT&T had solved the problem to our satisfaction.

[everybodyknows]

A state regulatory responsibility, IIUC. What state are you in?

[et2o]

What regulator did you call?

[twunde]

It was almost certainly the state public utilities commission PUC, which depending on the state may have a different acronym (PSC is also common). These regulate telecom, water, and energy companies including ESCOs (companies that in theory reduce your energy bill by charging you a different rate than the local monopoly). For companies regulated this way, PSC complaints are extremely effective.

[csydas]

Frankly, I'm not sure how this is customer service so much as either:

- A promised warranty being fulfilled

- A battle of attrition until Macy's gave in

I'm sure there are more nuanced options also but I'm not going to take the time to guess each one as frankly I'm just not quite sure what the definition of Customer Service should be from this post. Should we focus on "The device was used to its limits and still replaced"? That Macy's actually honored a guarantee?

I have a very dour view on customer service since my particular line of work is B2B with IT professionals and it's rarely a pleasant experience with many regions, with the US (yes, nationally) and the UK (yes, basically all of it) being some of the most challenging customers to deal with simply because of their expectations and definitions of Customer Service.

The majority of the time they're not even aware of the terms of their support contract and constantly are pushing the boundaries of support or from the get-go are just far beyond anything that should be reasonably expected, and the amount of complaining and legal threats really takes an emotional toll on my team (since a lot of them do really want to help).

With the EU clients, the same boundary pushing happens, but I find there's usually much more of an honesty about it. Usually one of three things comes from our EU clients:

- The client openly admits they know we don't provide support for said thing, but they really have no other source for help

- The client honestly tells they had no idea we didn't provide support for such things, and humbly asks if there's anything we can offer to help out

- The client honestly had no idea we didn't provide support for such things, and closes out the case of their own volition

I'm not sure that I can say which result has the best "customer experience" for my clients, as in each case they don't get what they expected from the case they open. US/UK clients tend to add a 4th option:

- The client doesn't care what is/is not supported, they want a resolution

I can easily say which of the 4 outcomes is the most time consuming and emotionally draining for everyone involved.

I think that the idea of service is really misunderstood; service workers are not slaves, and while management __should__ work to make them do their job and honor the business' obligations, management also needs to help clearly define the boundaries of such obligations and explain how to gracefully deescalate situations that toe or exceed these boundaries.

[newdude116]

Use your US CC, make charge-backs. Big surprise once for Wizz Air :-)

In general: You have to find a weak spot. I have problems with a scam (ongoing) in an East European EU country and I have been trying to get the authorities for 6 months to act. Even hiring a lawyer has been extraordinary difficult. Most don't reply Emails, others charge exorbitant fees, our last lawyer is MIA so we are trying now with a lawyer that is listed on an embassy website. We are talking here about a loss of a mid 5 figure sum.

After nothing worked, I listened to the advice of a local friend and started to expose people from the government/police that do not act online. Very bold, very nasty, very below the waistline. But now it looks like I finally bombed them to the negotiation table. :-)

[GordonS]

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs

I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500.

Ryanair completely took the piss - they were very clearly trying to hold on to everyone's money for the duration, and ignored communications or offered ridiculous, short-lived credit notes in lieu of a refund. Several months passed like this.

Eventually I read up on how charge backs worked and called my card provider. They sent a form, and within a couple of weeks, the money was back in my account - the whole process was really straightforward, and I fully recommend using it if a vendor is outright refusing to uphold their side of the bargain.

[newdude116]

In my experience charge backs are not so common in mainland Europe. A US CC issuer (and I am a customer since 18 years with the same card) can be much more aggressive about this. I think Wizz air has never dealt with an US CC :-)

Nevertheless I don't abuse this. I only request a charge back if I assume I also would win a lawsuit. But nobody has ever challenged one of my charge backs in court.

[GordonS]

> In my experience charge backs are not so common in mainland Europe

Definitely agree. I'm pushing 40, and this is the first time I've done it. When I talked with friends and colleagues about this (from in the UK, but also from around Europe), I don't think a single person even knew what chargebacks were.

But I don't think I've ever once been in this kind of situation where my hand was forced - companies in Europe generally do the right thing, or at least behave within the boundaries of the law.

[mgkimsal]

Similar dance with Qantas, although we didn't have to use a chargeback. But after several months, we finally got them on the phone, and they said "we'll refund. it may take X days". X+30 days later we had no movement, called again. and they said there was no record, and then offered to refund - but only a partial amount (they weren't seeing extra fee charges on their end). Too much back and forth, but over 8 months after booking, and close to 4 months of calls and waiting, we got refunded, without having to file a chargeback.

[newdude116]

"and close to 4 months of calls and waiting"

This is what charge backs are for. It is not my duty to invest time, nerves and potentially even pay interest for this.

[newdude116]

"I fully recommend using it if a vendor is outright refusing to uphold their side of the bargain."

What is also very stupid since they don't lose only the money but also very likely a customer.

[Normal_gaussian]

They aren't that likely to lose each customer. Ryanair targets cheap flights, their customers are those who discriminate on price. In this instance there is even an externality to point to, shifting the blame - even implicitly.

It also has to be considered that shrinking their market share is viable if it allows the company to survive.

[Symbiote]

Depending where the customer lives and wants to go, Ryanair can easily be 2-12 hours faster than the alternatives.

Especially in Eastern Europe, they might be the only airline with direct flights between smaller cities and Western Europe[1]. There's no way I'm choosing Lufthansa and changing flights in Munich if I can go direct with Ryanair and save 3+ hours.

I've wondered if I show up as this type of customer to Ryanair, since there have been a couple of times when it's been within their terms for them to charge me (e.g. slightly overweight luggage, lost boarding pass) and they haven't.

[1] Destinations from London Luton, almost entirely Ryanair and similar budget airlines -- zoom in to ~Slovakia: https://www.flightconnections.com/flights-from-london-luton-...

[GordonS]

> their customers are those who discriminate on price

Not only price. We've flown previously with Ryanair numerous times, and I don't think price was ever the deciding factor - they simply fly to a lot of European destinations, so for us it's meant shorter routes.

They've completely lost my trust after this debacle though - their illegal behaviour had been utterly shameful, and I'll go out of my way not to use them in future.

[merb]

> after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus

really really doubt that you even tried. In mainland europe you just needed to fill a form, after a month you would have your money back.

[GordonS]

Don't be so bloody rude, why on earth would I make up something like this?

I sent numerous emails, filled in maybe 6 forms, and multiple times had their understaffed online chat system open for up to 8 hours trying to speak to someone - for all the good it did when they answered.

Here in the UK, at the start, yes, Ryanair asked you to fill in a form, and said they would issue refunds within 14 days. I, like several thousand of others, duely filled in the form - only for Ryanair to change their tune a couple of weeks later. My guess was they'd sought legal advice, and found some loophole they thought would allow them to get away with it.

They went several weeks at a time with no general customer communications, and weren't replying to emails - on the rare occasions they did, it was to say they'd process refunds "later". Some weeks later, they sent out a general customer email, saying they'd only be issuing (short-lived!) credit notes instead of refunds, and anyone who declined would have to apply again, and would then have to wait until the pandemic was over for a refund. This whole (illegal!) debacle was very widely reported in the British media.

[Youden]

"Europe" isn't a monolith, how to solve the problem depends on your country and the country of the business you're trying to deal with.

Which country are you talking about specifically?

[DanBC]

When you have a problem you make a single contact to their customer service line setting out what the problem is, and asking for their advice about what needs to happen for it to be fixed. Make a recording of this and keep details of the date and time and the name of the person you speak to.

If that doesn't fix the problem you then make use of their complaints process. This is hard because they usually hide it away somewhere. But they all have one. It's best to do this using real letters in the post, because you might need this paperwork later. Grind through it until you get a final answer.

If that didn't fix it you have a choice. For regulated industries you can go to the regulator for advice. Or you can start a legal process.

For the regulator send a letter using whatever weird webform they use. Make sure you mention that you've already exhausted the company's own dispute resolution process. Some regulators are better than others - often you won't get much satisfaction from regulators.

Send a letter before action. This describes what went wrong and what you want them to do to put it right. Give them the timeline of how you've tried to fix it. Give them reasonable time limits to fix it. Then issue small claims proceedings.

[dmos62]

Had an experience like this with Lufthansa where it owed me ~600 euros for a cancelled flight. Someone messed up over there and tagged my compensation as delivered, but no money had actually arrived in my bank account. I kept track of the number of emails it took to solve this: >30, 1-2 every week. That's only from me, double that for the total.

The customer service was simply repeating the same thing over and over: accounting says the money was sent. What aggravated the issue, was that basicly every email was replied by a different customer service agent. I pointed out to them that according to SEPA regulations it is the sender's responsibility to ensure that the funds reach the recipient, but they were ignoring it. I didn't think to ask to be forwarded to the legal compliance office. I did take legal action, sort of, by complaining through the EU out-of-court dispute resolution platform, but didn't receive any response through the platform (might have helped anyway, don't know).

What helped resolve it, was looking up SEPA regulations (because until then I was saying "this is your responsibility", they were replying "no it's not"), endurance, and a sense of humour.

[rmetzler]

Probably depends a lot on the country, the type of business and the issue you have.

Just the other day there was judgment in a case against Vodafone (a mobile carrier) where callcenters faked the voices on the call to get a provision and the customer should pay for something he never wanted. If you live in Germany, the Verbraucherzentrale (consumer advice centre) can help you resolve issues like this.

[toyg]

Europe is a big place, with very different legal systems and business customs. It’s true that businesses tend to be less customer-focused (euphemism), but depending on the specific country there may be relatively easy redress.

[bogdanu]

It depends on the country, I guess? In Romania the professional attitude combined with mentioning the regulator (or filling a complaint to the regulator) works pretty well for consumer goods.

[throwaway2245]

> I’m at a complete loss in Europe. Any advice?

In my experience, this has stopped working so well in the last few years with companies tending to call customers' bluffs.

In most cases the best solution is: stop giving them money and go to the competitor.

Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you.

If the industry has an ineffective regulator/ombudsman then going to a competitor might not help. In that case, I'd write a polite letter to your national member of parliament. (They are more likely to make this go away by fixing your personal problem, not instigating industry changes, so write with that in mind)

[Silhouette]

Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you.

You actually do have to follow through if you're going to play that game. Otherwise almost everyone is just going to call your bluff, and I'm reasonably sure CS reps are now being actively trained to do so immediately at many companies. For example, any implication that you'd like to close an account or cancel an order will just be met with "I can do that for you immediately if you like", and if you don't take them up on it then they know you're not serious and you've lost any sort of credibility or leverage you might have had.

So, actually follow through. In the UK, suppose you have a legitimate grievance but get messed around by customer services, who may of course be incentivised to do exactly that. You may get better results by desisting from dealing with CS reps and instead sending a letter with verified delivery to the company's registered address. Clearly set out your grievance, what you would like them to do about it, and a reasonable amount of time you will allow for that to happen. Also include everything necessary for it to constitute a letter before action, which is the first step to a formal small claims action here, and possibly give a simple, objective statement in your letter that unfortunately if the matter is not resolved amicably by your stated deadline then you will proceed with that action.

IME, at that point your case may well be transferred to someone who actually knows the law and will be able to see if they have actually broken it or have obligations under it. And if they do, they'll know that it's in their best interests to resolve the matter quickly and agreeably if possible, and you may well get a response proposing some reasonable resolution (or saying that they'll stop chasing you if they've been hassling you after making a mistake).

If they don't do that, then actually bring the small claims action. This is designed to be accessible to normal people without requiring big expenses and professional lawyers. A lot of companies will apparently just not show up and let you win by default in that case, and you'll get some reasonable compensation for whatever wrong they've done to you. And if they do show up and you have a reasonable grievance, there's still a fair chance you'll win reasonable compensation accordingly.

[TheOtherHobbes]

Small claims can work with some companies, but others simply laugh at County Court Judgements.

The hard part isn't winning - which is easy if you have even a minimally credible case - it's enforcement.

If the company ignores the judgement you have to go back to court to get an enforcement order. And then you'll have to engage a collections company and/or a bailiff. And if they seize goods to the value of because they can't extract a payment, you won't be paid until the goods are auctioned off.

To a company turning over millions, a one-off claim for a few hundred is barely worth noticing. From their POV you're barely a flea bite, and of course most people will give up on a claim without much of a fight. So naturally they're going to try that first.

The other point is that most people you deal with don't care either way. They'll follow the company script, because the outcome - and your inconvenience - mean nothing to them.

[daniel-cussen]

I don't know. Having seen Small Claims Court in person, there were companies suing people and people suing companies. And all the companies showed up.

As for enforcement, here, you're allowed to sell the debt the company owes you to collectors, and this pays 10% interest a year--not bad compared to a checking account. You can demand they show up in court again and answer to the judge why they haven't paid, and when they will, you can lay claim to rent and assets, et cetera. The court won't do that for you, but it very much does want to help legitimately harmed parties settle their score.

I agree it's not fast, though.

[Silhouette]

Small claims can work with some companies, but others simply laugh at County Court Judgements.

Then once again you just have to actually follow through. Obviously a business can't just decide to ignore a court ruling against it and get away with it if you take steps to enforce. And if you don't want to, there are professional organisations who are experts in the relevant law and will act as your agent and take enforcement action of the appropriate type for your case.

[corty]

Sue them for real, or at least have a lawyer write a letter.

[ornornor]

This becomes very time consuming, very fast. Even if the insurance pays the lawyers fees, I still have to setup an apointment, explain the situation again, give the documents, etc.

It's always "small" amounts like 50-500$, i.e. amounts that it sucks throwing out the window but that aren't big enough to justify sinking even more time in chasing.

I also don't believe this can be the only way. Most people don't have legal insurance and wouldn't pay a lawyer the equivalent of 1000$ for a dispute like that.

I'm talking every day stuff: a cellphone bill with an error on it (in the company's favour, always), or an Ikea piece of furniture that was delivered broken (but the package looked fine), or a voucher you were promised if you signed up for a particular health insurance plan and when it's time to get the voucher you're not eligible anymore... That kind of stuff.

[manquer]

For smaller amounts there is usually an small claims court or ombudsman kind of framework in most jurisdictions , they rarely require lawyers, many times the company either fails to show up and you can get a default judgment , or they will settle out of court as the cost of the process is greater than the amount you are asking for.

This still requires some amount of time from you and the small filing fees, the way I would calculate is whether I can earn more in that half day I spend in court and is my documented evidence clear and simple enough that i have an high probability of success.

The judges in such courts are usually impatient - they have ton of cases in their the docket, concise and simple presentation of facts and no opinions etc goes a long way, they also know you are not a lawyer so there is always some latitude for the plaintiff that usually you don't find in other places

Also your ability to sue in small claims court depends on jurisdiction, i.e. if you have any forced arbitration clauses in your contract and whether the jurisdiction has exceptions for small claims despite such clauses etc.

[berdario]

Isn't that the kind of stuff for which you'd rely on opening a dispute with your credit card provider?

[ornornor]

I live in Switzerland. A lot of stuff is paid cash at the store, with a debit card, or as a bill that you receive at home later. There is no credit card involved in the transaction.

I've also tried charging back on my Swiss card once... What a mission. I was treated the same way any other store treats me: download this PDF, print it out, fill it in (5 pages), send it in the mail, wait 3 weeks, never hear back.

Compared to my North American cards: one phone call and the dispute is open. Wait a month and get the credit. End of story.

Or for cell phone issues in NA: try calling once, get nowhere, tell the regulator with time of call and name of the person, a week later get a call from the "VIP" service at the telco who will basically give me whatever I want to make the complaint go away.

There are no regulators with that kind of power that I know of here. All of the "regulators" have no teeth, and so the businesses don't fear them.

[mfsch]

What can help in Switzerland (and potentially in other countries in Europe) is to complain through a consumer protection office. SRF has a TV and radio show (Kassensturz/Espresso) where they regularly solve consumer issues by threatening bad publicity.

Another option that can work is to send a bill for the owed amount and if they fail to respond start the process of debt collection (Betreibung). It’s a pain and doesn’t work well for people who actually cannot pay, but for regular businesses where you’re stuck somewhere in their bureaucracy it’s a way to force them to respond to your claims that’s a bit less involved than straight-out suing them.

[amenod]

This might explain it - Switzerland is in Europe, but not part of EU. At least in EU consumer has lots of rights and is pretty well protected. I have no idea how that is in Switzerland (though what you report surprises me). That said, legal action in Europe... good luck. :)

If this happens to you a lot, go for a credit card. "Chargeback" works worldwide (afaik) and it puts you in the position of power, where merchant has to prove that you are in the wrong instead of the other way around. Simple solution and no real drawback.

EDIT: ...and change your CC company. They seem incompetent.

[buckminster]

Writing a letter yourself works. In my experience in the UK anyway.

In the past I've had disputes where I've made tens of phone calls to customer support people who cannot solve the problem but pretend they will. Every call is groundhog day.

Now, if the problem isn't solved by the first phone call I write a letter.

A short paragraph (one or two sentences) describing what happened and why it is a problem. A short paragraph describing what I want. Then all the tedious detail. And conclude by restating the problem and what I want. No threats.

It hasn't failed yet.