[chvid]

Where is EU in this embarrassment?

Suppose Margrethe Vestager called and said TikTok, you are banned unless you let a "very european" company take over your business? And by the way. We would like a cut.

And would the US still being able to say "national security" if it was fully owned by German business running on servers in some Swiss mountain?

[Hokusai]

> Suppose Margrethe Vestager called and said TikTok, you are banned unless you let a "very european" company

Wouldn't do this make sense for Facebook? I would like to see a European company owning the European side of Facebook.

I really like Silicon Valley and their initiative, but again and again American companies have shown that they cannot be trusted with European data (maybe USA data either, but that is an internal matter of the USA).

Facebook, Twitter and other social networks are the new public squares for social discussion. Even more now that many people works from home.

I can understand USA decision on this matter (not the way as it has been imposed in a short time-line and without much feedback). And I can see that Europe not acting in the same way damages European citizens capability to regulate their own public spaces.

I also see anti-globalization as a risk for many other types of products and services. A healthy global market has provided growth and stability.

Meanwhile digital social networks have been a source of radicalization and manipulation of citizens from all around the world.

A different approach is needed to product shoes or phones that to provide citizens with public spaces.

[andreilys]

I really like Silicon Valley and their initiative, but again and again American companies have shown that they cannot be trusted with European data

Source?

Btw HSBC [1], Unilever [2] and many other European companies have had customer data breaches. I’m sure there would be even more but Europe has almost no top internet consumer companies

So I don’t have a lot of trust in European companies to safeguard customer data, curious to hear why you do.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2018/11/06/hsbc-ban...

https://www.verdict.co.uk/fresh-film-data-breach-dove/

[sandworm101]

>>American companies have shown that they cannot be trusted with European data. Source?

Room 641A? NSLs? Lotus Notes? The RSA fiasco? The EU report on Project ECHELON? The PSP? CNN? PBS Frontline? Edward Snowden? ... all the security news for the last few decades.

I might not agree with the idea that US companies are totally untrustworthy, but I would never suggest that idea is unfounded.

[Avamander]

> Source?

The EU-U.S. Privacy Shield Invalidated: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-eu-u-s-privacy-shield-...

[marketingtech]

On paper and for regulatory/tax purposes, a European company does own the European side of Facebook - Facebook Ireland Ltd.

[Traster]

The US has seen a slow but sure move towards executive power for a long time now. Congress has passed multiple laws to allow to give the president extra powers under certain conditions repeatedly. Meanwhile, presidents have been taking these powers and using them to do policy work that really should be done by congress. This is why DACA was such a mess, why we've got national emergencies dating back 30 years for the war on drugs[1]. Essentially yes, they can assert that anything is national security, and whilst countries might try appealing to the WTO or such, it's really ineffective.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...

[lovetocode]

Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real. The United States should be playing hard ball. The US TikTok systems are compromised by Chinese spammers already.

[borg_]

> Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real.

Comment like this lumps tiktok, a privately owned company with the Chinese government with no evidence. It's never about national security but really about US politicians seeing a social network with real reach in the US that for the first time does NOT need to pay to lobby in the US, nor to be responsive to congressional inquiry (as they have been able to do recently with US tech platforms, accusing platforms of suppressing conservative/liberal views, again without evidence).

If you know anything about bytedance's founder you would know that he's been an outspoken globalist, criticizing the government's approach to free flow of information on multiple accounts. Uninformed comments like this is truly tragic for many globalist people in China who grew up hoping for a global stage with open, fair competition and who often do not agree with the government's perspective.

[FooBarWidget]

It's worse than that. The hostilities towards everything China in 2020 are pushing all sorts of Chinese people away, who otherwise would have been supportive of US and liberal values.

What baffles me is that nobody knows that this is happening. Nobody is trying to understand how the other side sees it, and to work towards a real solution. Or maybe people are just wilfully blind to this possibility. People are so convinced that their view is the only possible legitimate view, and that no other legitimate views could possibly exist.

[ir77]

anyone with power and wealth in china is dependent on the government, they only have these things because the government allowed them to have and keep it, for now. thus it really doesn't matter how one individual on that side sees things, he sees things the way his side allows him to see.

it would be different if people exiled from china and were getting involving once they're in the western world, but to broadcast one's independence while in china is a moot point.

i have been to china many times and have many chinese friends, also many HK friends, and the chinese, while while very hospitable to the US will never pick US over china, never publicly or to an outsider anyways, they always follow the party line.

until the mentality of the regime allows and tolerates the discent there are no unique feelings on the other side to consider.

[FooBarWidget]

So you're downplaying the number of people who feel that way. You're also saying that their feelings are not genuine, and only forced upon them.

All this does not bode well for world peace.

Be careful of what you're wishing for. A democratic China may not be so different in terms of geopolitics as you would think (or they would be different, just not in the way you expect). Try reading what Kishore Mahbubani — ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head — has to say.

[ir77]

with democracy and ability to speak your mind without goverment's persecution everyone is playing on the same field.

i'd much rather take democratic china's disdain than dictator's china friendly overtures. you can work towards a long term solution of common understanding under democracy.

[beaunative]

so here you are dismissing the views of the people in a whole country because their government isn't 'democratic'. This isn't the most ludicrous thing I've heard but It has obviously gone too far. You are essentially denying the rights of anyone who is a Chinese citizen to speak their mind, on the ground it's influenced by the government. And for some reason, a citizen of the US would fear not for speaking anything, which is simply not true. I'm pretty sure there are plenty people who don't speak their true views for the fear of repurcussion even though they hold that view, regardless how unwelcoming it maybe. To suggest we are somehow free of those outside non-debatable coercion would be a dilusion.

[lovetocode]

Is the Chinese cyber threat not real? The United States, Russia and China are the largest producers of state sanctioned attacks by a significant margin. You are painting me as some sort of bigot when in reality I have a perfectly legitimate reason to be concerned. I have every right and reason to feel the way I do. I would support similar sentiment of any Chinese or Russian citizen who uses an American product. They can be cautious too, it won't hurt my feelings. We all make the best decision we can with the information we currently have.

Moreover, my TikTok information has already been compromised which pairs nicely with my SF-86 data that was also compromised with the OPM attacks. Why did I decide to even use the application to begin with you might ask? I chose to because I didn't want to rule out what is otherwise one of the most popular social media platforms in the country because of my own bias. TikTok is by far my favorite social media application I just no longer choose to use it. I will watch the TikTok content that trickles down into YouTube for the time being. I have no means to verify authenticity of your statement that the owner of TikTok is some sort of 'outspoken globalist' who condemns the Chinese government. All the while operating one of the largest growing social media companies based out of a communist country. If the US data is segregated from the Chinese based data centers then why did I start receiving text messages with Chinese characters in it within several days of downloading the application and creating an account? Was it all a coincidence? I would be naive to not believe that it was simply coincidental however it is damning.

Let me make my next point abundantly clear since you made some significant assumptions about my character. My concerns are rooted in a lack of trust with the Chinese government to keep my best interests in mind as a citizen of the United States.

[FooBarWidget]

If the threat of Tiktok gathering data is so real, then isn't a much better solution, to pressure Google and Apple into improving their security models? That way, nobody can spy on your phone anymore. Or do you think Tiktok is the only and last threat there will ever exist?

But nobody's talking about actual solutions. All this looks more like a witch hunt to me.

[lovetocode]

Absolutely, but you of all people FooBarWidget should know that application security and privacy is a layered approach. This isn't our first run in with each other but I don't expect you to remember me but I will always remember the pseudonym used by the creator of Passenger. However we can find common ground because I believe at the root of all this we both believe in two things 1) the fair and equal treatment of others and 2) our inalienable right to privacy.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in saying that the Chinese government is of concern, not necessarily the employees or owners of TikTok. But in all fairness, the Chinese government has a stronger ability to enforce their will on private business than seen in other places.

Addressing issues with Google and Apple is a tangential argument that is related but not entirely relevant to the conversation at hand. Why would I think TikTok is the only and last threat that will ever exist? I know that was a rhetorical question but a quite unnecessary one. To be fair, you don't know who I am so you can't make any assumptions of my intelligence or character outside of my comment history here on HN.

This is really an unprecedented situation so I believe it is fair to be somewhat cautious of further committing Chinese grown software into the pockets of tens of millions of US citizens. We are talking about mainland China here, not HK. If this company is so innocent then why did they pull out of HK? The acquisition of TikTok by Microsoft is interesting but why Microsoft? I don't believe Microsoft is doing it out of a sense of patriotism -- they want our data too. It isn't so much a witch hunt but we did get front row tickets to the bidding war on the commoditization of our personal data.

[FooBarWidget]

Thanks. It's good to hear you are someone who knows me.

My rhetorical question was not meant as an attack on your intelligence, and I apologize if it came over like that.

I agree with your common ground. I will not disagree on the desire to be cautious. Putting down measures to prevent spying is justified.

I'm just doubting whether that is the actual intention of the US govt. Let's say that they require that all foreign companies that process user data must undergo periodic security audits. That would be an actual, practical, fair solution. I have no problems with that. But that is not what is being proposed here by the US govt.

The Microsoft sale should have been the ultimate solution: replace all personnel with US personnel, use US servers only. Yet the US govt is still forging ahead with the ban, providing Tiktok with no way to solve this peacefully.

And now, they are banning Wechat. An app that nobody in the US uses except Chinese people to keep in touch with friends and family. How is this protecting national security?

I am only against the disingenuousness of it all. I am frustrated at the fact that so many people, in their zeal to oppose China (note: not making a value judgement here on whether that zeal is justified, just stating the fact that the zeal exists), don't see this disingenuousness.

[fr2null]

I don't think the key data that TikTok is gathering is anything you can really block on your phone. It doesn't ask for your phone number, it doesn't ask contacts, it doesn't ask for access to your messages. Instead, it looks for trends, it looks at who you are.

I (18 years old) have used TikTok for about 2 months, before deleting it because it simply got too addictive. In that time it learned what my favourite games are, what shows I watched as a child, my political views, my eating preferences, my technology preferences. The list goes on. While I'm not sure how much of this is saved in a black box and only known by the algorithm and how much they can extract, I'd argue that this is many times more valuable for China that my personal phone.

Furthermore the power to influence the algorithm, subtle and slightly of course, may slowly change the minds of literal millions of teens.

[FooBarWidget]

There is a solution even to that. That's what the Microsoft sale is all about. That's why Bytedance proposed to sell ALL shares of their US branch. Replace the entire US branch staff with US employees. Vet every line of code. Don't send any data to China. This is the ultimate solution.

And yet nobody seems to be interested in this solution. People are still cooking up new reasons to ban Tiktok. Or ignoring the existence of this solution altogether.

Why do you think that might be? I suspect it's because the issue is more emotional and fear-based than rational. People are falling for the propaganda.

[shuntress]

That does not actually solve the problem.

Yes, maybe I find it a little easier to trust Microsoft than Bytedance. But the problem is not who holds the data that I generate about myself.

The problem is that I have zero (or very little) agency to view or manage this data. That lack of agency is important because this data will have a tangible impact on my life.

[FooBarWidget]

But I thought we were talking about national security? Why did it suddenly turn into privacy and data control?

Privacy is a legit angle, but why focus on Tiktok alone? Talk about privacy law reforms so that Twitter and Facebook are also included.

[beaunative]

People should have the right to choose not to use it. Tik Tok isn't a monopoly for obvious reason. That level of government intervention would be unprecedented.

[lifeformed]

How is that different than what Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/etc are doing though? Is the worry that China can do something more nefarious with that data than US corporations can?

[JetSpiegel]

All those are within the reach of National Security Letters.

[Avamander]

¿por que no los dos?

Why not both?

Also please do keep in mind that the lockdown of both Android and iOS has been gradually increasing. If they slapped on all the restrictions all at once, it'd be too much of a shock to developers.

[Eridrus]

The cyber threat from China is very real, but cyber capability is super cheap. A one-off capability is going to run in the low single digit millions. You wouldn't endanger an asset currently worth tens of billions and growing for that.

[ponker]

The situation that we have is that the only person who actually has the willpower to stand up to China (Trump) is simultaneously too idiotic and too self-centered to effectively do so.

[beaunative]

This is a laughable statement. You don't need willpower to stand up to China, you need the presidency and the will to do so.

[jjeaff]

>And would the US still being able to say "national security" if it was fully owned by German business running on servers in some Swiss mountain?

I suppose they could. But I am fairly confident that if tiktok was a German company, this would not be happening. China is reaping what they sew here. On top of getting a taste of their own medicine.

It is unfortunate for the Chinese owners though that they have to pay the price for their government's actions.

[pjc50]

The EU can't use national security as an excuse because it's not a nation and doesn't have a state security apparatus of its own.

Individual countries might. I'm not sure whether we've seen an EU single market law vs national security case yet.

[nemothekid]

One of the reasons the US can do this is because this is unwinding the Musical.ly deal. The EU certainly has the ability to block an acquisition of an EU company by a US megacap.

[babesh]

Trump is signaling that Microsoft is his lackey and Microsoft is signaling in the affirmative. That cloud business from the Defense department sure is lucrative.

[chvid]

Something like that.

Plus remember when Zoom was a national security threat? You know with that Chinese guy in charge, the Chinese servers, the censoring on behalf of the CCP ...

Funny how that all disappeared when Zoom got in bed with Oracle.

[SpicyLemonZest]

They've signalled pretty significantly that they won't follow the Chinese government's demands, including publicly joining the Hong Kong data pause. I don't mean to fully excuse the initial response (Zoom was always an American company with an American CEO!), but the Oracle partnership isn't the only thing that's changed.

[abc-xyz]

Zoom is of course still a national security threat.

[sneak]

Nothing Zoom does or does not do threatens the continued existence of the United States in any capacity.

Calling nearly everything on or related to the internet a matter of "national security" is to demand that everything be overblown.

[Loughla]

It's the new 'think of the children' argument.

People can't be convinced it's used for child pornography, because that's pretty easy to prove/disprove. So now the boogeyman is national security.

[thephyber]

"National Security" has always been the ultimate unfalsifiable accusation.

Only those who have access to the underlying classified information can legitimately make the argument. Those who don't have the same access must trust those who do.

The system breaks down quickly when the former group gets everyone into a war because they failed to vet the underlying intelligence or purposefully misconstrued the intelligence or they just moved the goalposts of "national security" to include preemption.

[_pmf_]

> Suppose Margrethe Vestager called and said TikTok, you are banned unless you let a "very european" company take over your business?

This would make sense if the EU had any company remotely capable of being able to afford this.

[bryanrasmussen]

https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2005/europ...

[rrdharan]

That’s sorted by revenue not cash on the balance sheet. Here’s a more salient list:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/07/microsoft-apple-and-alphabet...

[chvid]

Hey ... we can print money too ...