[ir77]

anyone with power and wealth in china is dependent on the government, they only have these things because the government allowed them to have and keep it, for now. thus it really doesn't matter how one individual on that side sees things, he sees things the way his side allows him to see.

it would be different if people exiled from china and were getting involving once they're in the western world, but to broadcast one's independence while in china is a moot point.

i have been to china many times and have many chinese friends, also many HK friends, and the chinese, while while very hospitable to the US will never pick US over china, never publicly or to an outsider anyways, they always follow the party line.

until the mentality of the regime allows and tolerates the discent there are no unique feelings on the other side to consider.

[FooBarWidget]

So you're downplaying the number of people who feel that way. You're also saying that their feelings are not genuine, and only forced upon them.

All this does not bode well for world peace.

Be careful of what you're wishing for. A democratic China may not be so different in terms of geopolitics as you would think (or they would be different, just not in the way you expect). Try reading what Kishore Mahbubani — ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head — has to say.

[ir77]

with democracy and ability to speak your mind without goverment's persecution everyone is playing on the same field.

i'd much rather take democratic china's disdain than dictator's china friendly overtures. you can work towards a long term solution of common understanding under democracy.

[FooBarWidget]

If I think a few steps ahead, about the implications so what you say, then this is what I read:

Unless the Chinese people overthrow their government, and succesfully install a democratic government, they do not deserve to gain wealth through business with the rest of the world, and do not deserve to live a good life. The chaos and suffering that such a process brings is not important. The unknown chance that a post-overthrow government is both democratic and competent, is also not important. The fact that the Chinese people's lives in the past 30 years have become tremendously more free and more prosperous, and that these are the best 30 years in the past 3000 years, is also not important.

In the words of Kishore Mahbubani: do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? Condemning China on a single ideological issue, while ignoring the complexity of the context as a whole, feels good because it aligns with your values, but doesn't do anybody anything good.

Actual good changes are achieved through more dialog, better mutual understanding, better relations and rational approaches.

[ir77]

china's masses have traded freedom and liberty for wealth and prosperity -- or i should say had them 'exchanged for them by their government'. but make no mistake, that wealth and prosperity is only there for those that support the regime, how are dissidents treated? how are muslims treated?

i don't understand your argument, just because the chinese are wealthy and happy doesn't mean they can't be be shunned for their ideology.

your argument is like the comment i heard when i traveled to chartleston and all the locals still to this day lament the civil war -- the war of northern aggression -- and how prosperous and beautiful life was in charleston [beacause it was all supported at the colossal expense of slavery]. this is your argument for china: ignore the slavery of the mind and actions, look how prosperous they are; well, some of them anyways.

i'm happy to say that i live on the side that won't sell you a seat at the table simply because you've brought a bunch of money with you. that there is some principal reason that goes beyond that.

[FooBarWidget]

That is not my argument at all. My argument is not, ignore the things you disagree with. It's: if you want to change them, that cannot be achieved just by denying business with them and with a 'my way or the highway' attitude. Instead, dialog and understanding yield better results. And you're not doing that.

You also state a number of things that I think are not as factual as you believe. I do not know whether you are interested in challenging those believes, so I will keep my mouth shut about them unless you indicate you are willing to.

[ir77]

no snide remark intended, but please do enlighten me.

i understand where you're coming from when you say "denying business with them"... but i believe that approach is taken because it is such a bottoms-down regime. because any business invariably gets approved by the regime and simply benefits the regime. it's not like a dissident is allowed to live there disconnected with the government and do business independently and start a voice/party to challenge the status quo -- that business man is there because the government allowed him to exist and he knows it.

[beaunative]

so here you are dismissing the views of the people in a whole country because their government isn't 'democratic'. This isn't the most ludicrous thing I've heard but It has obviously gone too far. You are essentially denying the rights of anyone who is a Chinese citizen to speak their mind, on the ground it's influenced by the government. And for some reason, a citizen of the US would fear not for speaking anything, which is simply not true. I'm pretty sure there are plenty people who don't speak their true views for the fear of repurcussion even though they hold that view, regardless how unwelcoming it maybe. To suggest we are somehow free of those outside non-debatable coercion would be a dilusion.