[borg_]

> Because the Chinese cyber threat is incredibly real.

Comment like this lumps tiktok, a privately owned company with the Chinese government with no evidence. It's never about national security but really about US politicians seeing a social network with real reach in the US that for the first time does NOT need to pay to lobby in the US, nor to be responsive to congressional inquiry (as they have been able to do recently with US tech platforms, accusing platforms of suppressing conservative/liberal views, again without evidence).

If you know anything about bytedance's founder you would know that he's been an outspoken globalist, criticizing the government's approach to free flow of information on multiple accounts. Uninformed comments like this is truly tragic for many globalist people in China who grew up hoping for a global stage with open, fair competition and who often do not agree with the government's perspective.

[FooBarWidget]

It's worse than that. The hostilities towards everything China in 2020 are pushing all sorts of Chinese people away, who otherwise would have been supportive of US and liberal values.

What baffles me is that nobody knows that this is happening. Nobody is trying to understand how the other side sees it, and to work towards a real solution. Or maybe people are just wilfully blind to this possibility. People are so convinced that their view is the only possible legitimate view, and that no other legitimate views could possibly exist.

[ir77]

anyone with power and wealth in china is dependent on the government, they only have these things because the government allowed them to have and keep it, for now. thus it really doesn't matter how one individual on that side sees things, he sees things the way his side allows him to see.

it would be different if people exiled from china and were getting involving once they're in the western world, but to broadcast one's independence while in china is a moot point.

i have been to china many times and have many chinese friends, also many HK friends, and the chinese, while while very hospitable to the US will never pick US over china, never publicly or to an outsider anyways, they always follow the party line.

until the mentality of the regime allows and tolerates the discent there are no unique feelings on the other side to consider.

[FooBarWidget]

So you're downplaying the number of people who feel that way. You're also saying that their feelings are not genuine, and only forced upon them.

All this does not bode well for world peace.

Be careful of what you're wishing for. A democratic China may not be so different in terms of geopolitics as you would think (or they would be different, just not in the way you expect). Try reading what Kishore Mahbubani — ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head — has to say.

[ir77]

with democracy and ability to speak your mind without goverment's persecution everyone is playing on the same field.

i'd much rather take democratic china's disdain than dictator's china friendly overtures. you can work towards a long term solution of common understanding under democracy.

[FooBarWidget]

If I think a few steps ahead, about the implications so what you say, then this is what I read:

Unless the Chinese people overthrow their government, and succesfully install a democratic government, they do not deserve to gain wealth through business with the rest of the world, and do not deserve to live a good life. The chaos and suffering that such a process brings is not important. The unknown chance that a post-overthrow government is both democratic and competent, is also not important. The fact that the Chinese people's lives in the past 30 years have become tremendously more free and more prosperous, and that these are the best 30 years in the past 3000 years, is also not important.

In the words of Kishore Mahbubani: do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? Condemning China on a single ideological issue, while ignoring the complexity of the context as a whole, feels good because it aligns with your values, but doesn't do anybody anything good.

Actual good changes are achieved through more dialog, better mutual understanding, better relations and rational approaches.

[ir77]

china's masses have traded freedom and liberty for wealth and prosperity -- or i should say had them 'exchanged for them by their government'. but make no mistake, that wealth and prosperity is only there for those that support the regime, how are dissidents treated? how are muslims treated?

i don't understand your argument, just because the chinese are wealthy and happy doesn't mean they can't be be shunned for their ideology.

your argument is like the comment i heard when i traveled to chartleston and all the locals still to this day lament the civil war -- the war of northern aggression -- and how prosperous and beautiful life was in charleston [beacause it was all supported at the colossal expense of slavery]. this is your argument for china: ignore the slavery of the mind and actions, look how prosperous they are; well, some of them anyways.

i'm happy to say that i live on the side that won't sell you a seat at the table simply because you've brought a bunch of money with you. that there is some principal reason that goes beyond that.

[beaunative]

so here you are dismissing the views of the people in a whole country because their government isn't 'democratic'. This isn't the most ludicrous thing I've heard but It has obviously gone too far. You are essentially denying the rights of anyone who is a Chinese citizen to speak their mind, on the ground it's influenced by the government. And for some reason, a citizen of the US would fear not for speaking anything, which is simply not true. I'm pretty sure there are plenty people who don't speak their true views for the fear of repurcussion even though they hold that view, regardless how unwelcoming it maybe. To suggest we are somehow free of those outside non-debatable coercion would be a dilusion.

[lovetocode]

Is the Chinese cyber threat not real? The United States, Russia and China are the largest producers of state sanctioned attacks by a significant margin. You are painting me as some sort of bigot when in reality I have a perfectly legitimate reason to be concerned. I have every right and reason to feel the way I do. I would support similar sentiment of any Chinese or Russian citizen who uses an American product. They can be cautious too, it won't hurt my feelings. We all make the best decision we can with the information we currently have.

Moreover, my TikTok information has already been compromised which pairs nicely with my SF-86 data that was also compromised with the OPM attacks. Why did I decide to even use the application to begin with you might ask? I chose to because I didn't want to rule out what is otherwise one of the most popular social media platforms in the country because of my own bias. TikTok is by far my favorite social media application I just no longer choose to use it. I will watch the TikTok content that trickles down into YouTube for the time being. I have no means to verify authenticity of your statement that the owner of TikTok is some sort of 'outspoken globalist' who condemns the Chinese government. All the while operating one of the largest growing social media companies based out of a communist country. If the US data is segregated from the Chinese based data centers then why did I start receiving text messages with Chinese characters in it within several days of downloading the application and creating an account? Was it all a coincidence? I would be naive to not believe that it was simply coincidental however it is damning.

Let me make my next point abundantly clear since you made some significant assumptions about my character. My concerns are rooted in a lack of trust with the Chinese government to keep my best interests in mind as a citizen of the United States.