[FooBarWidget]

If the threat of Tiktok gathering data is so real, then isn't a much better solution, to pressure Google and Apple into improving their security models? That way, nobody can spy on your phone anymore. Or do you think Tiktok is the only and last threat there will ever exist?

But nobody's talking about actual solutions. All this looks more like a witch hunt to me.

[lovetocode]

Absolutely, but you of all people FooBarWidget should know that application security and privacy is a layered approach. This isn't our first run in with each other but I don't expect you to remember me but I will always remember the pseudonym used by the creator of Passenger. However we can find common ground because I believe at the root of all this we both believe in two things 1) the fair and equal treatment of others and 2) our inalienable right to privacy.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in saying that the Chinese government is of concern, not necessarily the employees or owners of TikTok. But in all fairness, the Chinese government has a stronger ability to enforce their will on private business than seen in other places.

Addressing issues with Google and Apple is a tangential argument that is related but not entirely relevant to the conversation at hand. Why would I think TikTok is the only and last threat that will ever exist? I know that was a rhetorical question but a quite unnecessary one. To be fair, you don't know who I am so you can't make any assumptions of my intelligence or character outside of my comment history here on HN.

This is really an unprecedented situation so I believe it is fair to be somewhat cautious of further committing Chinese grown software into the pockets of tens of millions of US citizens. We are talking about mainland China here, not HK. If this company is so innocent then why did they pull out of HK? The acquisition of TikTok by Microsoft is interesting but why Microsoft? I don't believe Microsoft is doing it out of a sense of patriotism -- they want our data too. It isn't so much a witch hunt but we did get front row tickets to the bidding war on the commoditization of our personal data.

[FooBarWidget]

Thanks. It's good to hear you are someone who knows me.

My rhetorical question was not meant as an attack on your intelligence, and I apologize if it came over like that.

I agree with your common ground. I will not disagree on the desire to be cautious. Putting down measures to prevent spying is justified.

I'm just doubting whether that is the actual intention of the US govt. Let's say that they require that all foreign companies that process user data must undergo periodic security audits. That would be an actual, practical, fair solution. I have no problems with that. But that is not what is being proposed here by the US govt.

The Microsoft sale should have been the ultimate solution: replace all personnel with US personnel, use US servers only. Yet the US govt is still forging ahead with the ban, providing Tiktok with no way to solve this peacefully.

And now, they are banning Wechat. An app that nobody in the US uses except Chinese people to keep in touch with friends and family. How is this protecting national security?

I am only against the disingenuousness of it all. I am frustrated at the fact that so many people, in their zeal to oppose China (note: not making a value judgement here on whether that zeal is justified, just stating the fact that the zeal exists), don't see this disingenuousness.

[fr2null]

I don't think the key data that TikTok is gathering is anything you can really block on your phone. It doesn't ask for your phone number, it doesn't ask contacts, it doesn't ask for access to your messages. Instead, it looks for trends, it looks at who you are.

I (18 years old) have used TikTok for about 2 months, before deleting it because it simply got too addictive. In that time it learned what my favourite games are, what shows I watched as a child, my political views, my eating preferences, my technology preferences. The list goes on. While I'm not sure how much of this is saved in a black box and only known by the algorithm and how much they can extract, I'd argue that this is many times more valuable for China that my personal phone.

Furthermore the power to influence the algorithm, subtle and slightly of course, may slowly change the minds of literal millions of teens.

[FooBarWidget]

There is a solution even to that. That's what the Microsoft sale is all about. That's why Bytedance proposed to sell ALL shares of their US branch. Replace the entire US branch staff with US employees. Vet every line of code. Don't send any data to China. This is the ultimate solution.

And yet nobody seems to be interested in this solution. People are still cooking up new reasons to ban Tiktok. Or ignoring the existence of this solution altogether.

Why do you think that might be? I suspect it's because the issue is more emotional and fear-based than rational. People are falling for the propaganda.

[shuntress]

That does not actually solve the problem.

Yes, maybe I find it a little easier to trust Microsoft than Bytedance. But the problem is not who holds the data that I generate about myself.

The problem is that I have zero (or very little) agency to view or manage this data. That lack of agency is important because this data will have a tangible impact on my life.

[FooBarWidget]

But I thought we were talking about national security? Why did it suddenly turn into privacy and data control?

Privacy is a legit angle, but why focus on Tiktok alone? Talk about privacy law reforms so that Twitter and Facebook are also included.

[beaunative]

People should have the right to choose not to use it. Tik Tok isn't a monopoly for obvious reason. That level of government intervention would be unprecedented.

[lifeformed]

How is that different than what Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/etc are doing though? Is the worry that China can do something more nefarious with that data than US corporations can?

[JetSpiegel]

All those are within the reach of National Security Letters.

[Avamander]

¿por que no los dos?

Why not both?

Also please do keep in mind that the lockdown of both Android and iOS has been gradually increasing. If they slapped on all the restrictions all at once, it'd be too much of a shock to developers.