[founderling]

I wonder why they price their products so cheap.

They seem to be totally overrun by demand. And give a terrible user experience when you try to order from them. Friends of mine have ordered (and paid!) Pine64 products weeks ago and get no information when they will be shipped. When you send them an email, it either gets ignored or you get a reply by someone who does not speak English. Telling you something like "Yes will inform you when be shipped".

Why not charge 50% more and treat your customers like customers?

This taints the whole Pine64 brand for me. I totally want a Linux phone and a Linux tablet. But I don't know if I should trust a brand that treats their customers like this.

[farisjarrah]

This isnt really a finished product that they are comfortable selling to the general population. I actually feel like they are doing a pretty good job of setting customers expectations. From the order page for the pine tab I see these disclaimers:

    The PineTab comes with UBports OS build installed. Please note that the OS build is still in a beta stage, and while most core functionality works, some elements remain a work-in-progress.

    Small numbers (1-3) of stuck or dead pixels are a characteristic of LCD screens. These are normal and should not be considered a defect.

    When fulfilling the purchase, please bear in mind that we are offering the PineTab at this price as a community service to PINE64 communities. If you think that a minor dissatisfaction, such as a dead pixel, will prompt you to file a PayPal dispute then please do not purchase the PineTab. Thank you.

To me that means, this is not a "product" in the traditional sense. They're just trying to accommodate hackers by providing more fully fleshed out development kits in hopes that they can make a more fully fledged product in the future.

[kohtatsu]

The PineTab comes with UBports OS build installed. Please note that the OS build is still in a beta stage, and while most core functionality works, some elements remain a work-in-progress.

Small numbers (1-3) of stuck or dead pixels are a characteristic of LCD screens. These are normal and should not be considered a defect.

When fulfilling the purchase, please bear in mind that we are offering the PineTab at this price as a community service to PINE64 communities. If you think that a minor dissatisfaction, such as a dead pixel, will prompt you to file a PayPal dispute then please do not purchase the PineTab. Thank you.

[beamatronic]

Their honesty is so refreshing. Wish more companies were like this.

[vikramkr]

That doesnt mean their customer service as in giving an estimate of a shipping time should be that bad. They could at least say "hey, we're a bit overwhelmed right now, we'll let you know when it's ready to ship but dont have more info right now, sorry" or something like that

[founderling]

How does the statement about dead pixels help people who ordered and paid a phone but get no information on when it will be shipped?

Regarding general population vs hackers: Do you imply that hackers value low price higher then others? Are hackers particularely poor? I thought hacker often means coder which usually means higher income then the general population.

Personally, I would totally prefer to pay 50% more and have my emails answered and my orders shipped.

[Lex-2008]

I'm not that much into discussion of terms "hackers" vs "community", but maybe you can track updates in the first post in this tread: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9942

Quoting from there:

> We're under constraints that we have no control over (e.g. border being closed between HK and mainland China), the shipping companies and carriers are under many constraints (self-imposed or imposed by regulators) and the logistic chain as a whole - including people - is under regulatory constraints. In short, current situation is not business as usual. I am getting many PMs and emails asking about status reports - as soon as I know something, I post it here, there is no need to PM or email me. Thank you for your continued patience!

Also, somewhere I've read that their shipping team is 4 people packing about 1000 items per day. Why increased demand doesn't cause increase in shipping team - that I don't know.

You can also connect to IRC/Telegram/Matrix channel and ask there - somebody with more knowledge might answer you.

[kick]

Counter-perspective:

On price:

By releasing things as cheaply as they can within reason, this vastly broadens who can get one. Given that they depend on the community to create most if not all of the software, this means that software support gets there much earlier than it would otherwise; compare the progress on the Librem handset to the PinePhone: one took three years, has gone over the predicted timeframe multiple times, and still isn't quite right (or released), while Pine64's is actually surprisingly decent, and got there much faster.

On 'customer' experience:

Every time I've ordered from them they've been perfectly responsive and have gotten things shipped on a reasonable time frame. They're based in China and, if you weren't aware, there's kind of a big event happening over there that's interrupted their everything. They're not Apple and it'd be worse if they were trying to be; they aren't treating their customers badly, they're treating their workers well; chill out.

[worble]

> By releasing things as cheaply as they can within reason, this vastly broadens who can get one. Given that they depend on the community to create most if not all of the software, this means that software support gets there much earlier than it would otherwise;

This is exactly it, if we want linux on phones to be a real experience that can offer something on par with Google and Apple, then the very first step is getting hardware into hackers hands; the software will never follow if there aren't any users. The exact kind of person you want using these devices is someone willing to pay less money and pay with their time instead.

[JeremyNT]

> This taints the whole Pine64 brand for me. I totally want a Linux phone and a Linux tablet. But I don't know if I should trust a brand that treats their customers like this.

Frankly, it seems like this isn't the device for you. I agree, you should probably wait. But words like "taint the brand" seem incredibly strong to me.

These devices are for developers and tinkerers, not the general population. The goal is to get these devices into as many hands as possible, hitting a price point as low as possible. This allows for more people to get access to the hardware and start tinkering, helping to build out the (woefully lacking, at this time) software ecosystem.

To be honest, I feel like they have done a really good job of setting expectations around this, so I'm not terribly sympathetic to this class of complaint. I ordered a PinePhone and am patiently waiting for it to ship. I'm glad it's so cheap! It's not going to be a device to replace my primary phone (yet), it's a project to tinker with. As such I don't want to spend much more money.

[Iolaum]

I ordered a pinebook pro on April 1st and arrived on June 3rd. I knew it was a pre-order when I paid. This meant months before the product arrives and that I would have to monitor the news from their website. They posted monthly (and bi-weekly, towards the end) updates on the shipping status, manufacturing issues and coronavirus impact. I had a problem because I am moving houses and their support team has been very helpful in accomodating me.

When I got the laptop I was expecting a cheap plastic build but got an aluminium sturdy frame. Best laptop purchase I ever had, this comment is actually being written from my new pinebook pro.

I m sorry you feel you are not treated like a customer. Given the company's size they are really doing wonders.

[renewiltord]

This explains why so many people have trouble with Kickstarter and I love it. I think these things are not for you. You have a lower risk tolerance and strong quality requirements for your customer experience. I think there were adequate signals that these were not going to be met, but if I ever do something like this I'm going to make it even clearer that this is early-access tool for the community and there are lots of failure points.

Honestly, I suspect this experience is just not for you, man. It's like when we funded the glowing plant on Kickstarter, or the smart mattress topper that became Luna and then Eight, or funded the development of neovim. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. These are people experienced at doing a thing but not all the things around the thing. There's going to be drop-offs.

I really wish there were a way to just say "If you have normative expectations, go elsewhere". I really want to be able to participate in this specific subsector of the economy without the general-consumer folks increasing costs because I'm willing to accept lots of cut corners on beta products and they want all the trappings of working with folks.

As an example, one of the things I bought they took two weeks to respond to me (it was a combination GPS/Glonass/Galileo antenna for cheap). That's okay for me. It took months to arrive with many delays every few months. That's also okay for me. I don't want them to hire more folks to ensure they can respond to everyone. I don't want them to hire more folks so they can manage the customs hassle. I want them to be able to validate the product itself because I want more of that product.

[morganvachon]

> Friends of mine have ordered (and paid!) Pine64 products weeks ago and get no information when they will be shipped. When you send them an email, it either gets ignored or you get a reply by someone who does not speak English. Telling you something like "Yes will inform you when be shipped".

They are very transparent about the delays in shipping. You can find the most up to date information in a sticky post on their forum[1].

> This taints the whole Pine64 brand for me.

That's an extremely charged response, you definitely should check the forum post to get some perspective. In short, there were QA issues with the first batch of Pinebook Pro and PinePhone orders, they are running the remaining unshipped units through a second round of testing before shipping, and the combination of COVID-19 and China/Hong Kong border issues have further delayed shipping.

[1] https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9942

[waiseristy]

My PinePhone was lost in shipping during the start of the pandemic like you mentioned. They happily sent me another a few short weeks later, no complaints! Awesome customer service

[rvense]

I think it's a bit much to expect their entire support staff to write in perfect English, since they are not based in an English-speaking country. I don't think it's a very big operation, either.

I have one of their boards and can only say I had a good experience buying from them. I think compared to some of the alternatives in the price range (ie., random, no-name eBay crap), their documentation and forums is very good.

[HenryBemis]

I will get one, just to have one. Just like I wanted to get that $100 laptop a decade (or more?) ago but I never got the chance. I see it more as supporting an endeavour that may benefit more people down the road, than any thought I got on my mind.

For anyone who wants a a decent tablet (Android 5 though) on 10", I suggest the Amazon Fire HD (7th gen is fine), you can get a used for for £30-£50, then "hack it" to remove the Amazon crap/bloatware (plenty of sites with instructions out there) and use that. I have set up multiple friends like that. They buy it, meet for a coffee, I de-crap it for them in 20mins and they end up with a nice 10" android tablet to read and watch Netflix.

(Not advertising or affiliated with Amazon)(I think Bezos should give more to his staff and less to his pocket) ;)

[nullc]

Raising the price to $110 might make demand match their supply (by dropping, say, 80% of demand), but losing $10 per unit sold may be an extremely good deal for all the marketing the excess demand generates.

[rajangdavis]

From my Pine64 experience as an initial backer, I 100% agree.

I think where Pine64 failed to deliver is that they overpromised on when they could deliver the product. I received mine very late and I couldn't boot the OS and support wasn't helpful.

Meanwhile, the Raspberry Pi 3 with 64bit support was announced after Pine64 and delivered before the Pine64 without hiccups.

Pine64 could have improved but I woule rather stick with something like a Raspberry Pi where there is a better level of support (from my experience).

[squarefoot]

"Meanwhile, the Raspberry Pi 3 ..."

The Raspberry PI foundation essentially is a branch of Broadcom, a chipmaker with $20 billion revenue in 2018. Pine64 had to crowfund their first boards 5 years ago while Broadcom already had been a chip vendor for the US military. They are not even comparable.

Moreover, I wouldn't take the Pi Foundation as an example after what they did with the Zero, which was sold for years in extremely low quantities at cost, or bundled with unnecessary stuff, just so that word of mouth of that price would prevent people from purchasing boards from competitors.

[gcbw3]

They are upfront they are selling hardware to developers, pretty much.

The complete opposite of Librem, who do the same thing but charges $2000 for a laptop that barely boots without hacking libreboot every week and then proceed to use that money in marketing for their linux mobile phone which will be in the same sorry state and sold for the same high price and empty promises.

[A4ET8a8uTh0]

I happen to agree. I am still waiting for my phone. They do have defense with Covid impact, but, were it any other company, I doubt I would be as patient or forgiving. They have a lot of goodwill. They should do what they can not to squander it.

Adjusting pricing may be better for them especially if demand is that high.

[seph-reed]

I see this as a really good sign. It implies marketing is not yet running the show... into the ground.

[notatoad]

it seems like they would benefit from a purchasing experience that's a bit less like the traditional e-commerce checkout. i think this is one of the things kickstarter really excels at - allowing companies to sell products that aren't really ready for normal consumer purchasing without it "tainting their brand", because it sets expectations correctly.

If pine doesn't want price to be a barrier to purchasing their products (which is an admirable position), and they don't have the resources to serve all the orders they're getting, they should throw up some other barriers in the purchasing process to handle the demand. instead of selling direct, do bulk buys through linux user groups or something like that.

[formercoder]

But how elastic is that demand? Would they have the same amount if the price was higher?

[happycube]

They could easily charge $250 for the Pinebook Pro without losing many sales IMO.

[acetoxy]

I just wanna say I had a great experience with the customer support after I ordered my Pinebook Pro. They were super helpful and polite!