[ChuckNorris89]

Just out of curiosity what do you do that earns you 100k in Italy if I may ask?

Most Italians I met working in Austria and Germany left Italy because of low salaries and they're not making anything close to 100k here either.

I've even met Italians who moved to Eastern Europe for higher tech salaries than back home so something doesn't add up.

[asjw]

That's a completely fair question.

I'm a senior developer who works on distributed systems for one of the largest Italian private held financial institutions.

To be completely honest I know almost nothing about finance, I just know how to make reliable software for them.

I've been there for almost 4 years now, I started as a contractor but they offered a substantial yearly bonus to the base salary so I accepted the hiring proposal.

Before that I've been an independent contractor for more than a decade and at the end I was making a bit less but not far from that. I mainly worked for overseas companies remotely (a few times I went over there for short periods - weeks or a couple of months) or in agencies here in Italy that worked for the fashion industry.

Must say it all changed when I moved to Milan, I could dream this kind of salary in my birth city (Rome)

[lultimouomo]

Are the 100k before or after taxes and social security? That's quite impressive for an employee position in Italy, good for you!

If you can say, how would you judge the competency of the developers working for your company? From time to time I interact as an external contractor with developers from banks/insurances et similar and the average level of their IT has seemed quite lackluster to me.

In general I think sofware development in Italy suffers from a low-balling syndrome. Developers are not held in high esteem and are not paid much, so developer positions do not attract many capable and ambitious people - most either move to management positions as soon as possible, start contracting or move abroad.

[asjw]

Before taxes.

I think developers in Europe in general sell themselves short, they feel like outcasts who have to go through suffering for having a better job than the average. I used to be like that, I would accept lower rates to not feel obligated to wear a suit and a tie.

Now I don't care anymore, still don't wear ties at work, I show up late in the morning (not a morning person, sorry!) but charge what I think is the right amount.

[ga2arch]

Hi, I'm Italian too working in Milan, just wondering if you have any suggestions on how to get these kind of offers, i imagine they don't appear on public places like linkedin.

if you don't mind we can talk about it via email.

[asjw]

Hello fellow Meneghino!

The usual advices apply here:

- you solve problems, sell yourself as that. It's okay to fill a résumé with technical skills, but also add something that tells potential clients/employers what you really do (developer is ok, experienced frontend designer/iOS developer is better) and what they can use you for. Sell your experience(s)

- if you're above junior (you are confident with at least one major technology) start charging at least 200-250 a day. Charge more if the rate is hourly. It is honest to ask at least for that. You usually will work 200-220 days/year so don't multiply your rates for 365 or you will be disappointed at the end of the year.

- remember that if you are doing contract jobs you are in charge of your taxes and retirement savings, so account for that in your rates. It's easy to dismiss a rate as "too high" until you start factoring in the expenses.

- if you find offsite jobs (you are sent to the client's office) add to your rates travel expenses and hotels/relocation if you have to move. Don't take jobs that won't accept it or will try to pay you a little more. You are payed for your job, they should cover any extra. Including lunches/dinners out. They are probably asking at least 2x to the client of what they are paying you.

- hire an accountant, they can save you thousands euros/year. It's worth the cost.

[vidarh]

Don't know Italy, but two things stands out above:

Getting in via contracting, and financial services.

Financial services tends to often have salaries significantly above the average for developers, and having gone the same route of contracting first myself it has some definite advantages:

- You establish your value on charging a high day rate that is entirely within the norm as a contractor but usually well above the pay for a permanent employee of similar seniority.

- The company knows you when you negotiate the permanent contract, so you represent a lower hiring risk.

- It's easier to appear as if you have options. E.g. when I went full time permanent, I had been on a part time contract, and I could point out that I had realistic expectations of booking a very significant amount of income over the following year from clients already mostly lined up, so to go permanent I made it clear the offer needed to justify to me why I should give that up.

This route is tougher and more uncertain, and frankly I wouldn't recommend it unless you're happy contracting as there's no guarantee you'll find a contract where they'll want to hire you.

[niwork]

> i imagine they don't appear on public places like linkedin

Can they do that? Just hire through a small network of people in the know? Sounds like a recipe for cronyism.

I'm not sure about Italy but in the UK companies legally have to advertise a job publicly and, if they receive an application that meets the criteria, I think they have to at least consider it, if not conduct an interview. That's not to say there is no nepotism, but there are measures to control it.

[vidarh]

There is no legal requirement in the UK to advertise a job publicly in general, and no legal hindrance to explicit nepotism for that matter.

However there is a requirement not to discriminate on the basis of certain characteristics, and the easiest way of protecting against such claims is to advertise publicly.

But a huge number of jobs in the UK are never publicly advertised anyway.

[delcaran]

Can confirm. As senior software developer I made 25K EUR in 2019.

[niwork]

That's a very poor salary for your job, if you don't mind me saying. Are you in Italy? What's the cost of living like?

Salaries in Europe are generally quite low for devs compared to the US. I think it's best in the UK.

Starting salary will average ~£25k, rising to ~£35k as you get more senior, then maybe £~45-55k one you're 5-10 years in.

This is excluding London and contract-based work, of course.

[glotgizmo]

This is pretty accurate and refreshing to see. Contray to everyone elses salaries, UK (excl. London) seems very low.

I am just below the £45k mark with 3 years at my current company and 12ish years overall. So should be bang on your numbers when it comes to 5-10 years at this company.

[niwork]

Where in the UK are you based?

Don't get disheartened when you read these big salaries online. The average reader isn't bothering to post theirs.

The UK is actually pretty good when it comes to IT salaries. Go to France, for example, and they're much lower. The attitude to devs is quite poor in a lot of places, treating us like we're one rung above car mechanics. We also have a good contract market in the UK; in many other EU countries (even Australia) contractors make peanuts in comparison.

Outsourcing and the low barrier-to-entry have all dampened IT salaries. Immigration has also played a part in the UK over the last 15 years; a lot of devs from Eastern Europe have gone where the money is - i.e. here. I know it's a contentious issue here but I say that with no malice. I'd do it too if I was them, and a lot of them are talented devs, but there's no point pretending it hasn't had an impact.

[barrkel]

IME salaries have risen fairly significantly in London over the past 7 years or so, up until about 2 years ago.

I don't think dev immigration has hurt that much if at all. There's a virtuous circle: the more devs there are, the more startups are created and the more FAANGs set up shop. Devs get more experienced on bigger and harder problems, which makes them more valuable.

There's a huge amount of developer immigration to SV, and yet that's where the highest salaries are. Would they really be even higher if FB, Google, Apple etc. couldn't find enough devs to hire, or would those companies have set up shop in other areas and countries instead, to accommodate their needs? Or would those companies have been growth constrained on availability of talent instead?

[type0]

> Go to France, for example, and they're much lower.

Personally heard some horror stories from french IT, any particular reason that attitudes don't change there?

[random9763]

Yes, salaries usually posted on HN are quite far from the average or median salaries for engineers.

E.g. as a french junior SWE I earn €50k before taxes and I known that’s more than most and less than some.

[glotgizmo]

niwork, i can't reply directly so will reply here.

I am based in the East Midlands, I have been offered up to 50k from other companies in the East Midlands but have either rejected (commute) or withdrawn due to slow references.

I feel like salaries are creeping upwards here but only for in fashion stacks. I am part of a larger organisation here and have the influence I'd like in the team so chasing salary isn't a demand for me anymore, however it does get disheartening at times!

[eru]

> Salaries in Europe are generally quite low for devs compared to the US. I think it's best in the UK.

That's mostly London as far as I can tell. The rest of the UK isn't so hot.

[delcaran]

Yes, I'm in Italy. Maybe it's because I live alone in a small and really cheap apartment, I keep the heat off even in winter (I dig cold) and I try to not eat at home (only lunch at work in the cafeteria), but I never had money problems. Things will surely change when I decide to buy a house.

[ido]

In Germany at the senior (10+ years) scale €70k/year is not unusual & if you work for the better paid companies (like google) you can expect significantly more.

[adrianN]

70k for senior level in Germany seems low to me. Siemens for example pays around 45-60k starting salary for developers.

[ido]

As I said you can find better but I'll bet the average wage for developers with 10 year of experience is actually below (or at least not above) 70k.

Also my experience reflects living in Berlin (& previously Vienna), in Munich or Frankfurt salaries may be higher.

[ChuckNorris89]

In which city/division can one find this salary? Siemens is huge and has multiple business units in multiple cities each with their own salary grid.

[adrianN]

Siemens pays according to the IG Metall labor agreement which you can find here (in German) https://www.igmetall.de/tarif/tariftabellen/wie-viel-gibt-es

A software engineer should get _at least_ EG10 which ends up being >50k e.g. in Berlin.

[niwork]

What about starting salaries, salaries at 2 years, 5 years etc.?

[fock]

in Munich: starting salaries with a masters are 55-60k€ (before tax!) at average car related companies (even for non-CS-grads doing SWE with a physics/math background), 60-70k€ at the actual car companies. Social sciences/other jobs with masters: 42-50k€, below that with a bachelors/apprenticeship. Independent of the education in IT you should be able to reach 50k after 5 years (excluding grunt work) and 80k with a masters. Some engineers I know have been taken by electronics industry as PMs for 120k€ straight out of grad school. Rents are high (20€/m²), so other parts of Germany might be better overall (subtract 20-30% of salaries).

All this doesn't hold true for a lot of immigrant labor and people working at startups, where you are offered 30-40k€ with a masters (these kindd employ most of the immigrant labor I think - of course there's the odd 100k YC). Imho this (at current rent levels) is exploitation and something which makes working in Munich not particularly attractive for anyone not from Germany or getting a job at a car company.

[ChuckNorris89]

Why can't non Germans get hired at those salaries in car or electronics companies?

[zerr]

Why? Go get a remote job and triple the salary, to start with. Of course don't mention your current one. Seriously, go scan HN Who Is Hiring thread for remote jobs - for US or Swiss companies, don't bill below six-figure. For German companies, aim high five-figure. Do it now.

[ubercow13]

Are there really that many US jobs hiring remote including outside the US so that every underpaid developer in Europe can get hired?

[balfirevic]

No, probably not. But it's possible that any particular (loosely speaking) underpaid developer can, because not all of them are actively looking for remote work.

[delcaran]

> Why?

I used to like this job. I was looking for a new one but COVID-19 happened.

As for the remote job, I currently work 6:30-17:00 with 45 minutes of commute, and the work environment is exausting. I don't think I could handle another job.

[thinkmassive]

I think they meant find a different job rather than an additional job.

[niwork]

Remote jobs paying 6 figures? Aren't they flooded with Indian applicants? Why can I hire an outsourced Indian or Ukrainian for £10,000 PA then? Sounds weird..

[literallycancer]

Simple. It's the difference between being able to find good paying work, and relying on others to find it.

You can be located in a cheap country making thousands a day while others make that in a month. Just need to be a good at finding people whose problems you can solve.

[niwork]

Can you give an example of that? What have you been doing?

[badpun]

They exist.

India has the most unfortunate timezone I guess, so US companies prefer Europeans, as there is at least some overlap. Plus, maybe there's unconscious racism? I.e. subconsciously associating white skin with higher skills.

[exdsq]

Does that really work? What sort of experience levels are you talking about?

[why_only_15]

I have one year of experience at a FAANG and i posted on the HN "who is looking for a job" thread and got an email from a company.

[Trill-I-Am]

Would you have gotten that offer with a year of non-FAANG experience?

[dirtnugget]

Probably not

[eru]

Do you have an American or EU or other passport?

[why_only_15]

American

[alexpetralia]

I think your motivational comment has unintentionally come off as patronizing and lacking empathy.

[ghyggg355]

Is this gross or net? I earn 50K EUR gross and 30K net on same role. It's close to top market rate in my country (Poland). I know some top engineers getting 80K. Anyway unless working contract taxes are too high to incentivise putting more effort.

I interviewed a lot and it's hard to get more than 70K EUR / GBP at least with my skillset and would need to move. I wonder if places like Amazon/FB/Google pay more in EU?

BTW are US salaries posted gross(pre-tax)? I wonder if it's worth applying for me.

[Tade0]

That's after taxes?

That's roughly the salary you'd get in Poland, but with a lower cost of living.

Not saying you should relocate or anything - I'm just amazed at the state of the Italian IT job market.

I spent a few years in Italy and have a friend who lived and worked in Poland. Hated the experience, but by his account it was the most stable and well paid job he had ever.

I never understood how could that be possible.

[delcaran]

Yes, that's after taxes. Relocating is on my wishlist but I'm really too afraid to do it.

[Tade0]

To clarify as I can't edit: my friend is Italian, I'm Polish.

Anyway while you'd probably be better off relocating to Germany, France and of course Switzerland if you ever consider Poland then give me a shout at:

hand @ wringing.it

It's a throwaway email that I check once every week.

Perhaps I would be able to help.

[delcaran]

Thank you!

[lultimouomo]

Depending on where you live and on the company you can get paid more, though not much more.

In 2013 I was paid 27k€ as a junior developer (2 years experience) in Florence, before taxes and employee-paid social security (I think if you count company-paid social security it adds up to around 33k€), but I think I was a bit lucky. I think software engineers making more than 60k€ as employees of an Italian company are exceedingly rare.

You can make twice that as an independent contractor, as long as you charge by project (if you want to be paid hourly you get killed by the sticker price comparison). Being a contractor demands a different skill set though, as the programming is only half of it; how much you make will depend for the most part on how you can deal with the customer.

[dede4metal]

To earn that in Italy in IT I only know a partner at Deloitte. Everyone else is well below that.