[niwork]

That's a very poor salary for your job, if you don't mind me saying. Are you in Italy? What's the cost of living like?

Salaries in Europe are generally quite low for devs compared to the US. I think it's best in the UK.

Starting salary will average ~£25k, rising to ~£35k as you get more senior, then maybe £~45-55k one you're 5-10 years in.

This is excluding London and contract-based work, of course.

[glotgizmo]

This is pretty accurate and refreshing to see. Contray to everyone elses salaries, UK (excl. London) seems very low.

I am just below the £45k mark with 3 years at my current company and 12ish years overall. So should be bang on your numbers when it comes to 5-10 years at this company.

[niwork]

Where in the UK are you based?

Don't get disheartened when you read these big salaries online. The average reader isn't bothering to post theirs.

The UK is actually pretty good when it comes to IT salaries. Go to France, for example, and they're much lower. The attitude to devs is quite poor in a lot of places, treating us like we're one rung above car mechanics. We also have a good contract market in the UK; in many other EU countries (even Australia) contractors make peanuts in comparison.

Outsourcing and the low barrier-to-entry have all dampened IT salaries. Immigration has also played a part in the UK over the last 15 years; a lot of devs from Eastern Europe have gone where the money is - i.e. here. I know it's a contentious issue here but I say that with no malice. I'd do it too if I was them, and a lot of them are talented devs, but there's no point pretending it hasn't had an impact.

[barrkel]

IME salaries have risen fairly significantly in London over the past 7 years or so, up until about 2 years ago.

I don't think dev immigration has hurt that much if at all. There's a virtuous circle: the more devs there are, the more startups are created and the more FAANGs set up shop. Devs get more experienced on bigger and harder problems, which makes them more valuable.

There's a huge amount of developer immigration to SV, and yet that's where the highest salaries are. Would they really be even higher if FB, Google, Apple etc. couldn't find enough devs to hire, or would those companies have set up shop in other areas and countries instead, to accommodate their needs? Or would those companies have been growth constrained on availability of talent instead?

[type0]

> Go to France, for example, and they're much lower.

Personally heard some horror stories from french IT, any particular reason that attitudes don't change there?

[random9763]

Yes, salaries usually posted on HN are quite far from the average or median salaries for engineers.

E.g. as a french junior SWE I earn €50k before taxes and I known that’s more than most and less than some.

[glotgizmo]

niwork, i can't reply directly so will reply here.

I am based in the East Midlands, I have been offered up to 50k from other companies in the East Midlands but have either rejected (commute) or withdrawn due to slow references.

I feel like salaries are creeping upwards here but only for in fashion stacks. I am part of a larger organisation here and have the influence I'd like in the team so chasing salary isn't a demand for me anymore, however it does get disheartening at times!

[eru]

> Salaries in Europe are generally quite low for devs compared to the US. I think it's best in the UK.

That's mostly London as far as I can tell. The rest of the UK isn't so hot.

[delcaran]

Yes, I'm in Italy. Maybe it's because I live alone in a small and really cheap apartment, I keep the heat off even in winter (I dig cold) and I try to not eat at home (only lunch at work in the cafeteria), but I never had money problems. Things will surely change when I decide to buy a house.

[ido]

In Germany at the senior (10+ years) scale €70k/year is not unusual & if you work for the better paid companies (like google) you can expect significantly more.

[adrianN]

70k for senior level in Germany seems low to me. Siemens for example pays around 45-60k starting salary for developers.

[ido]

As I said you can find better but I'll bet the average wage for developers with 10 year of experience is actually below (or at least not above) 70k.

Also my experience reflects living in Berlin (& previously Vienna), in Munich or Frankfurt salaries may be higher.

[ChuckNorris89]

In which city/division can one find this salary? Siemens is huge and has multiple business units in multiple cities each with their own salary grid.

[adrianN]

Siemens pays according to the IG Metall labor agreement which you can find here (in German) https://www.igmetall.de/tarif/tariftabellen/wie-viel-gibt-es

A software engineer should get _at least_ EG10 which ends up being >50k e.g. in Berlin.

[niwork]

What about starting salaries, salaries at 2 years, 5 years etc.?

[fock]

in Munich: starting salaries with a masters are 55-60k€ (before tax!) at average car related companies (even for non-CS-grads doing SWE with a physics/math background), 60-70k€ at the actual car companies. Social sciences/other jobs with masters: 42-50k€, below that with a bachelors/apprenticeship. Independent of the education in IT you should be able to reach 50k after 5 years (excluding grunt work) and 80k with a masters. Some engineers I know have been taken by electronics industry as PMs for 120k€ straight out of grad school. Rents are high (20€/m²), so other parts of Germany might be better overall (subtract 20-30% of salaries).

All this doesn't hold true for a lot of immigrant labor and people working at startups, where you are offered 30-40k€ with a masters (these kindd employ most of the immigrant labor I think - of course there's the odd 100k YC). Imho this (at current rent levels) is exploitation and something which makes working in Munich not particularly attractive for anyone not from Germany or getting a job at a car company.

[ChuckNorris89]

Why can't non Germans get hired at those salaries in car or electronics companies?

[hdkrgr]

1. They absolutely can and do, but many sell themselves short.

2. Big caveat: There are absolutely many conservative managers who insist on speaking perfect German / not switching the team language because of the new junior dev, so there will definitely be job openings where immigrants are discriminated against at those big corporates, but IME that doesn't apply to the companies as a whole.

The reverse is obviously also true: If you want to work in a young, international, open culture, you might prefer startups, but most of them offer lower salaries.

[fock]

they can of course (and are), but there are still a lot of underpaid jobs (compared to cost of lving) out there (and these companies are not going out business strangely, so they seem to find labor). Basically for a german it doesn't make a lot of sense to take a job, where you will be having the life of a barkeeper in Berlin (e.g. hustling through at <50k€) - and frankly, these jobs exist and they find employees, so imho this is mainly people "wanting to live in Germany" (at whatever the social cost)