[TeMPOraL]

> Don't get too fancy with your taglines. People don't have time to understand what you are saying. People don't like fancy terminologies except for what is popular.

It's worse than that. And it's my pet peeve about many startup landing pages these days. It's not like people don't have time to understand - there's nothing there to understand! "Full stack adaptive delivery" is a near-meaningless phrase. It can be construed to mean just about anything. It would fit just as well on a logistics company page, or on a sticker on the side of an ICBM.

I wish people would just say what they actually do.

[EdwardDiego]

> "Full stack adaptive delivery" is a near-meaningless phrase. It can be construed to mean just about anything. It would fit just as well on a logistics company page, or on a sticker on the side of an ICBM.

I personally wonder if they used the Startup Generator in earnestness. [1]

But yeah, I'm a senior techie, and often involved in potential procurement discussions, and sweet Jesus, if you want us to give you money, give us some goddamned concrete facts. You synergise enterprise cloud offerings?Oh, you mean you have a templating language that tries to generify Terraform and CloudFormation and does both badly.

I sometimes feel like people in ticket clipping businesses like this (their CDN offering is, um, Akamai, but you can make pictures grayscale using their DSL because that's easier than using a photo editor?) are scared of saying what they actually do because then you'll realise that they don't do much for the money they're asking.

[1] http://tiffzhang.com/startup

[ryguytilidie]

I do recruiting consulting and it blows my mind how every time I ask a startup how they differentiate from other startups and what specific advantages they want me to discuss, they give me a bunch of meaningless phrases. Its like founders are being taught a different language that they think provides value but makes no fucking sense.

[TeMPOraL]

I'd love to know where they learn that.

In my university years, I used to invent such ridiculously overblown phrases for simple things I did, as a form of mockery of corporate culture and my general pastime. But at some point I did realize that these phrases are hashing functions - like the ones you use in a hash table to put objects into buckets. So for a particular thing I do, say "adding colors to terminal applications", I could invent a bunch of nonsense phrases - "enriching the user experience of advanced software", or "delivering visual artistry to professional digital media" or whatnot. It was fun going in this direction, and we'd have a good laugh - but a person seeing just the output could never arrive at my original input, "adding colors to CLI apps". It was one of infinitely many things I could hash under the same phrase, and they could never know which one I did.

So in my eyes, if you're trying to explain something to someone, then using these phrases is essentially equivalent to taking MD5 of what you wanted to say and pasting that hash.

[DenisM]

I think it's pretty much spot-on.

People try to summarize their thoughts, but if they are not good at it the summary ends up being "We're pretty cool, not like those other non-cool people, and we stand for good things". And then, having arrived at that thought, they express it using the words they have heard before in similar circumstances.

And boom - pretentious mediocracy seasoned with hollow platitudes!

[dchichkov]

They might have arrived to this state of the page with meticulous A/B testing, optimizing for some function.

[pillefitz]

Maybe the initial guess was far off, so A/B testing led them to a pretty bad local optimum?

[dchichkov]

Who knows, could be a global optimum. Plausible theory could be - extreme frustration promotes memory formation ;) Or something ;)

[bob33212]

"We find null and empty values in your tables and Excel files and prompt your users to fix them" sounds like a 10 dollar idea. How are you going to get employees and investors to really jump on board with that.

"We revolutionize Enterprise Data Quality with next generation AI in the cloud" sounds better to employees, investors, and in some cases buyers

[WWLink]

So you're saying that there's a lot of con artists out there? No surprise really lol.

[TeMPOraL]

This is how extreme waste is created in this industry.

[travisjungroth]

And if there’s a collision, just move to the next one!

[shripadk]

I never thought of it this way. Really nice analogy.

[somecallitblues]

Cryptic you were.

[colechristensen]

The emperor has no clothes... there is a skill in speaking in an optimistic way using a series of intentionally vague words which smart people feel bad about not understanding so they just pretend they do and think positively about a product because for the life of them they could not articulate why the pitch/business/product didn't have any value. There's nothing to argue against because "I don't know what you're talking about" is an apparent argument against yourself.

I'm going to start a business selling a quantum leap in synergy paradigms. Begin with the tagline, move on to a landing page, and after that's nicely done, get a group of people together to brainstorm what the company actually does.

[cosmodisk]

A few weeks ago had a call from a saleswoman,after multiple failed attempts ( she called a few people in the company until finally someone transferred across) she managed to talk to me. I get a fair share of emails,calls and LinkedIn messages because of my title- everybody is trying to sell. So I thought 'screw this, let's see what she's got to say'. After her intro, and me asking a number of questions,I was still not sure what she was selling ( something in the cloud). Started with some storage solutions and ended with some security analytics. So it's not the CEOs of these companies, it's the sales reps as well. How can ever buy anything if I have no clue what it is.

[antaviana]

That reminds me a Dilbert strip:

Salesman: "We provide win-win situations and customer-focused solutions."

Dilbert: "But, what is the product or service that you actually sell?"

Salesman: "We don't sell, we partner."

[A_Parr]

The salesman exploits quantum physics by keeping what their company does in superposition until you collapse the waveform by revealing what you're willing to pay for. Instantly a developer at that company gets a bad feeling about something, but doesn't know what, until their manager walks over with a note from sales. They then retroactively do a bunch of work to have a deliverable by the next quarter.

[bob33212]

All they care about is getting you in a demo or free trial.

After that all they care about is getting you to agree that the demo looks good.

After that all they care about is getting you to agree that this product could be somehow useful in your company

Then they pounce. They ask when you are going to sign the contract because if you don't do it ASAP you will lose the discount. If you try to say that you don't want it, they start with the guilt trip. "I thought we had a deal. I have already booked my trip to come see you next week."

[antisthenes]

> The emperor has no clothes... there is a skill in speaking in an optimistic way using a series of intentionally vague words which smart people feel bad about not understanding so they just pretend they do and think positively about a product because for the life of them they could not articulate why the pitch/business/product didn't have any value. There's nothing to argue against because "I don't know what you're talking about" is an apparent argument against yourself.

Sounds like WeWork. If you've ever seen that Neumann/Kutcher interview, that's exactly how it went.

[throwaheyy]

I have a term for this phenomenon — the ‘Endo factor’. Credit to the geniuses at Theranos.

[cosmodisk]

LinkedIn is full of this shit. Depending on what people one follows or has in contacts, it's just too esy to forget there's anything else but 'thought leaders', 'thinkers in cheaf', 'harmony executors', 'power multiplier' and so on. Our office is next to a managed kitchen,one of those that cook food for restaurants on Deliveroo or Uber Eats. It's a kitchen. If you'd look at the owner's LinkedIn profile, you could probably say he's the next Elon Musk. You have a few managed kitchens, that's it.You are not a visionary,come on,man. Eventually others start copying.

[sopooneo]

I am with you on this. When I look up new companies and can't get a basic idea of their product/service even after spending minutes on their home page, it drives me batty.

But I also have a lesson from my former decades on earth: if lots of people are doing something that seems crazy to you, there is probably something you don't know. So could it be that there is some reason all these startups are so maddeningly obtuse? Other than just being bad at communication, I mean? Is there some incentive to not actually say what you do?

[baddox]

For many companies, the home page is probably simply not used for selling their product or informing new people about the company, and instead serves more as a symbol of the company's aesthetic and a way to welcome and comfort visitors.

Think of it more like the well-appointed lobby of an office headquarters. I don't think anyone would expect the lobby of an office building to explain what the company does. It's just supposed to look nice and welcoming.

This makes sense to me. You generally don't see uninformative homepages from consumer software-as-a-service or direct-to-consumer companies, for instance. Airbnb and Airtable both seem to immediately explain in fairly clear terms what they do, for example.

Even massive software companies with a huge range of products that self-serve to business customers have pretty explanatory homepages. Salesforce is a decent example.

I think the home pages that get these sorts of complaints are either companies that don't have product-market fit (and thus don't even know what they are yet), or companies that have long involved sales processes with large enterprise clients where they probably tend to negotiate highly-customized services. An example of the latter that comes to mind is Splunk, whose website uses a lot of buzz words and seems to basically be saying "trust us, if you're a big company with a lot of data, we can do anything you need regarding your data."

[ChrisInEdmonton]

I disagree on Airtable. Their homepage currently says "Part spreadsheet, part database, and entirely flexible, teams use Airtable to organize their work, their way."

I'm a software developer. I have no idea what they are selling, based on that. Is this some sort of souped up Google Sheets competitor? If so, what does it do better? Is this a team workflow management tool? If so, why bring up spreadsheets and databases? I suppose some teams may try to organise their workflow using spreadsheets, but this far into the 21st century, most people use tools like Jira or Github Issues or Monday.com or one of fifty other tools. Is this a software development tool? If so, errr, what?

I literally haven't the slightest idea, after reading their homepage, what problem this is trying to solve, what solution it is offering, and what the target market is. Am I a potential customer? I haven't the slightest idea. Can this help solve any problem I have? Maybe, but the homepage goes out of its way to refuse to answer this question.

Airtable has even targeted ads at me. It's not like I've only spent two minutes looking at their site. I still haven't the faintest clue what they do, let alone why they are better than competing alternatives.

[dakna]

> I'm a software developer.

I think that is why it is too generic for you. You already understand the underlying concepts of a spreadsheet, a database etc. Their target audience doesn't, but they know they need something _like_ that.

I think Airtable is in the no-code/low-code camp. Business people that have some technical ability and used to write Excel macros, can build a tool for their custom business process. Just like they did with MS Excel (or even MS Access) before.

And those people react to the buzzwords. "Oh, it can do a little bit of everything in one tool? And I can get it done without talking to the IT department? Book it."

I think you are too far ahead in your abilities to see the value it provides for people that rely on developer time to get anything technical done.

[baddox]

> I have no idea what they are selling, based on that.

I'm not sure why you don't have an idea of what they are selling, unless you just don't believe what their website says. "Part spreadsheet, part database" really is an accurate explanation of their product. It's basically how I would start any explanation of the Airtable product.

The rest of it ("entirely flexible, teams use Airtable to organize their work, their way") is certainly market-speak, and doesn't give much more information, but it also doesn't obfuscate anything.

[pc86]

I'm curious how often you push back on that and say "no, 'full stack adaptive delivery' doesn't really mean anything. Tell. Me. What. You Do."

[EdwardDiego]

When I've done that, people get defensive - if you're doing cool shit, you'd say so. When you're doing something simple you say something that sounds grandiose and enterprisey - we're doing "Full stack adaptive delivery" because you're worried people will realise that "you upload media to us, and can use our system to convert it if you want, and then we serve it via Akamai" will make people think that about 2/3 of your offering is rather pointless, and you could probably get the last 1/3 direct from Akamai for cheaper.

I feel bad shitting on a startup, but reading their docs I'm struggling to see what value they add beyond abstracting S3 and Akamai.

[hvs]

I'm not digging into their offering, but "making things easier" can be a great value proposition. They just need to be upfront about it.

[EdwardDiego]

It looks like you can allow admin or users to easily upload files to an S3 bucket that you don't have to manage, and then serve them via Akamai without configuring it.

I guess there's a value add there if you don't have a person on board who can configure S3 and Akamai.

[ryguytilidie]

As the person below said, a lot of these people have answers for pretty much everything. I'm the person you're responding to and it pretty much always goes like this:

"Arent there other companies working on fraud on the blockchain? How are you different?"

"Our team is amazing and is made up of myself and my founder who have 3-4 years of experience and need to fill it with 8+ year experienced engineers because before then no one is really useful here."

Me: "..."

OR

"Do we really need another machine learning solution to classify documents? What is different from you and your competitors?"

"Well, we think everyone else is doing it wrong and that we've found the perfect solution."

"What is that?"

"Myself and my cofounder are far smarter than any of our competitors".

OR

"How do you talk to candidates about salary?"

"Well, we don't give any actual numbers, but we share our compensation philosophy doc, which ive linked here".

"Right, but can you afford these people? why do you expect them to take a huge pay cut to make you a millionaire?"

"The right person will have faith"

There's always an answer that feels like it was fed to them by a VC who knows it won't really work, but is just hoping and praying.

[jccooper]

It may work in in impressing people while speaking, where you have more attention and can elaborate on what you actually do later, and maybe people get trained to do this during the fundraising process, but in the online sales cycle... "That's nice. Ctrl-W."

[megablast]

> they give me a bunch of meaningless phrases.

Because you are asking a meaningless question. Firstly, they are no experts on their competitors. Secondly, how can anyone even be, unless they have used all of them for a long time? Who can do that comparison??

[ryguytilidie]

You're mocking the idea that the founder of a company would understand their market...?

[shandor]

I have the feeling that "Full stack adaptive delivery" and its ilk are aimed at VCs or BigCorp sourcing managers instead of anyone that would actually use the product. The sad thing is that they seem to be so mutually exclusive nowadays.

[sgc]

We need an "engineer's hotkey" which would be a widely used hotkey combination which would change the css to show the no bs version of your landing page.

[ben509]

Not quite that, but if you had a shortcut to switch fonts, it could set the font to Sans Bullshit Sans[1].

[1]: http://www.sansbullshitsans.com/

[belinder]

That's definitely what it is. We are looking at it from the perspective of developers but I don't think that's the target

[mc32]

Exactly this.

So many times I have to spend ten minutes digging into what some of these companies actually do.

It’s highly frustrating. Give some examples of what you do. Explain it in simple language. Don’t rely on conceptual language because it doesn’t tell me what your offering does.

[roelschroeven]

I often resort to taking a look at the Wikipedia article about the company, if they have one, and usually that tells me in a few lines the no-nonsense version of what the company or product actually does.

[relic]

I think if companies actually said what they did, a portion of them would say things like "we use our massive collection of user data to help you _____".

[mguerville]

That's one of my favorite tool to try to get a brainstorming session back on track, to point to the fact that one of the sticky notes or items written on the white board is so vague it could be used for {insert ridiculously out of place business}

[montjoy]

I’m going to steal this whenever someone tells me they are a full stack developer from now on. Oh? So do you ship ICBMs?

[shripadk]

Exactly. I was being polite. I concur with everything you said.

[ggggtez]

I would not have guess that "full stack adaptive delivery" means cloud storage.

Maybe pay that $50k to a consultant to fix your copy.