[pcprincipal]

Long time swimmer and runner here - the biggest difference between the two IMO is the focus on lung capacity for swimming.

A common swimming training set most competitive swimmers will be familiar with are "lung busters". You do a 200y free that's 50y breathing every 3 strokes, 50 every 5, 50 every 7, 25 every 9 and then a 25y butterfly without breathing. I had a coach who would have us do 6 of these on 2:45 (meaning about 15-30s of rest for strong distance swimmers). Everyone would be audibly gasping for air by the end of these.

In races, how often you breathe is a critical part of race strategy. In a 50y/m free you generally shouldn't breathe at all; in a 500+ race, there are big debates about whether to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes. Additionally, how much to kick is a key part of strategy since kicking's contribution to speed is not great compared to how much oxygen it depletes.

I really don't think running compares in terms of how stressful the sport is on the lungs. That said, running 400m sprints with small rest intervals is extremely hard on every part of the body and I found the muscle stress from running far greater than from swimming.

[raoulj]

I swam competitively for 15 years, including 4 years of D1 swimming, but I come from a family of rowers.

The effect of limited breathing in swimming forced the body to adapt. One Thanksgiving, my father (a former international-level rower), my brother (a currently international-level rower), and I found our way into a pack of balloons. We wanted to see who could inflate the largest balloon off of a single breath. Once we had breathed our hardest, got out the measuring tape, and argued about the best way to measure it at length, we found that I had won.

My brother and my dad are both around 8 inches taller and 50 pounds more than myself — much bigger people. But they didn’t have to hold their breath for hours every day :)

Obviously this is a poor man’s proxy to a VO2MAX assessment, which I’m sure they would win. But lung volume is certainly one of a swimmer’s greatest assets.

[jacobjuul]

Lung capacity can only be improved a little bit with training (we're talking 5-10% range) and it's a poor indicator of your fitness level. Either you have a genetically larger lung capacity than your brother and dad, or you are simply better at filling your lungs to their full capacity. VO2MAX has nothing to do with lung capacity (if you're healthy)

[curun1r]

> Lung capacity can only be improved a little bit with training (we're talking 5-10% range)

Do you have a source for this, because it doesn't sound right to me. For one, the packing technique has been shown to add an extra 10-15%. So right off the bat, there's a training technique that can increase lung capacity by more than your figure. Also, my anecdote matches GPs...since I started training freediving, exercising my diaphragm on a regular basis and practicing three-zone breathing with the corresponding stretches, the amount I can exhale into a balloon has increased significantly.

[jacobjuul]

some interesting reading on the topic:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29174581 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28168782

(you can find more by searching PubMed). Granted I have mostly done research on cyclists. What we tend to see is an increase in the strength of respiratory musculature which leads to an increase in functional lung capacity and this capacity would not vary much between individuals (even between pro cyclists and high-level amateurs). More important than lung capacity for performance is your diffusing capacity (how fast you can move oxygen from lungs to your red blood cells). In sports other than swimming, it's always possible to breathe faster, which benefits from a strong respiratory musculature.

when it comes to freedivers, it's slightly different. They are forcefully stretching their lungs (which doesn't happen with normal aerobic training or breath holding to the same extent)

in this study https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/41/3/760.long they stretched their lungs as much as +800 ml.

[curun1r]

Unless I’m reading it wrong, it looks like the paragraph above the one that lists 800ml is the more interesting. The 2004 reading was 2.4L above expected, or 192% of expected.

Also, the freediving exercises are not just about stretching the lungs, they’re also about opening up the rib cage, since it constrains lung volume, and exercising the diaphragm, since the further down it can flex, the more air is pulled into the lungs. Freedivers also train the ability to stretch the diaphragm up since lung volume decreases significantly under pressure.

Anyway, it’s an interesting topic. And since you mentioned cycling, there’s one other area where apnea training intersects with the world of professional cyclists. You mentioned that the speed at which you can perform gas exchange in the lungs was the most important, and to a certain extent that’s true, but also important is the blood’s ability to hold oxygen and deliver it to organs/muscles. And, as I understand it, increasing the blood’s ability to hold oxygen is the primary effect of the banned substance EPO that cyclists frequently use to cheat. Now what’s interesting is that apnea training has a similar effect to EPO as well as increasing the body’s ability to reduce haemoglobin oxygen affinity. What I gather that to mean is that repeated exposure to hypoxic conditions triggers adaptations that allow freedivers to store more oxygen in the blood and, once reserves are running low, deliver more of that oxygen to the organs where it’s needed. The original study where I read this has since gone paywalled, so I’m not sure I’ve still got the correct link to give you, but one of the conclusions was that the effects of apnea training could likely be beneficial to the performance of endurance athletes like distance runners and cyclists.

[point78]

This is true. FEV1 and FVC for swimmers is higher than other athletes, having a 10% difference is actually huge compared to the general population.

Conversely a 20% below average function is what someone with asthma could have or beginning stages of lung disease.

Bottom line if you're lungs are functioning even 5% over "normal" for your age, height, and ethnicity you have extremely efficient lungs

[dredmorbius]

Lung elasticity and fill (and drain) capacity may be trainable, or affected by environmental factors.

Swimmer also, and at one gym I'd attended I heard I had the lagest lung capacity the trainer had measured.

[EForEndeavour]

Also, my understanding is that the body position in rowing -- squat-like at the catch, with arms reaching far forward -- impacts breathing to the point that most (all?) rowers breathe twice per stroke at higher stroke rates, such as race pace. Your dad and brother might be optimized for faster, relatively shallower breaths.

[beenBoutIT]

I rowed crew in college and swam on a swim team as a kid, IMO the big difference is that in swimming strategically holding your breath allows you to swim faster. With rowing there are brief parts of the stroke when breathing is physically impossible(right at the catch, as you mentioned) and you have to inhale/exhale around that. Outside of that rowers aren't deliberately holding their breath while rowing, ever.

[fc373745]

I'm an advocate of breathing every 2 strokes. Watching phelps 200 free in beijing was the time I switched from 3 to 2, and i think many swimmers followed suit, even biedderman who still currently holds the world record.

Sun Yang however mixes it up in the 800-1500, he'll do 2 for the majority of the swim, but there are times where he'll put in 3.

I've been doing every 2/4 for so long that it feels awkward trying to breathe to my strong side. I feel that muscle memory is actually a key component in why swimmers who generally breathe every 2 are faster. It's kind of like that bruce lee quote where you practice 1 thing 1000x is a lot more effective than practicing 2 things 500x each

[creaghpatr]

My experience was that 2 stroke breathing was good if you can put power into the full motion (like Phelps and others) but in high school I was pretty lanky and found 3 to be more balanced and streamlined— 200 has always been the border between short and long distance too which makes it the most gray area imo

[sharkweek]

This is super fascinating, thanks for sharing.

I did an olympic triathlon a few years back, and while I consider myself a decent runner and a strong cyclist, the swimming absolutely kicked my ass to the point that I'm not sure I'll ever do another triathlon to avoid it. Seems to take another level of strength to be great at it.

[alexfoo]

Technique buys you so much more speed and/or efficiency in swimming compared to cycling or running. Those that lack good technique will thrash themselves into a tired mess in order to keep up with the others on the swim.

Some swim coaching, and subsequent drills in your usual training, would soon get you on your way to enjoying the swim part of a triathlon and stop it being horrendous.

The cheap and less effective method is simply watching/studying this video every time before you go to the pool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs and then watching it afterwards and thinking about your own stroke.

[mykowebhn]

One thing I noticed in the video you included: when the shot is following him from behind I noticed that Van Hazel's head is completely stationary, no lateral or up-down movement. Amazing!

[irrational]

Also notice how far his shoulders rotate. I see lots of people mainly moving their arms instead of rotating their entire torsos.

[taurath]

Thats been a big thing for me to learn - if you want to be able to breath without taking long pauses, your whole torso needs to move, and it creates a very natural motion to pop your head left or right to breathe a pocket of air

[gideon_b]

Another bonus to rolling -- it is initiated with your core, so it uses large powerful muscles. Once the roll is initiated you can feed your kick and your pull with that momentum. You end up using more powerful muscles to feed your stroke, so you can pull harder without wearing out your arms.

[stevesimmons]

A few years ago, I did a swim workshop taught by Dan Bullock from Swim for Tri (https://www.swimfortri.co.uk). His technique is optimized for long distance open-water swimming and emphasizes smooth, energy efficient motion.

Watching him swim with literally no splash on arm entry was amazing. And torso rotation far further than

Most of my previous swimming was for water polo: short, sharp sprints, mostly head-up freestyle, focus on power and claiming space, often jostling with your opponent. Exactly the opposite of Van Hazel and Dan Bullock's focus on perfect technique.

[enraged_camel]

>>Technique buys you so much more speed and/or efficiency in swimming compared to cycling or running.

I know this isn’t the topic, but the exact same thing applies to rock-climbing. After a certain point, sheer strength won’t help you if you don’t have sufficiently good technique.

[nradov]

I recently started doing triathlons and had kind of a bad experience on the swim portion of my first race. Made it through but had to stop and tread water a couple times just to get my heart rate under control. But after training more I really enjoy swimming in triathlons. It's quite different from lap swimming in a pool. Most likely your problems can be easily fixed.

Here are a few random tips that might help, in no particular order. Sign up for an open water swimming clinic to learn from the experts; race organizers and local triathlon clubs put those on in some areas. Triathlon swimming is a contact sport so if you're uncomfortable with others bumping you then start near the back of your wave and stay towards the outside of the course (you won't lose much time). If the water is cold then buy a dedicated swimming wetsuit; suits meant for diving or surfing restrict arm motion too much. When you first enter the water that will cause your heart rate to jump up so get in the water early before your wave start time to acclimate. Practice lifting your head every few strokes to sight on a fixed landmark and stay on course. Practice bilateral breathing so that if the water is choppy you can always turn your head away from the waves to breathe. Buy tinted goggles in case the sun is in your eyes. Use your arms mostly and save your legs for the rest of the race.

[phamilton]

I was the opposite. A swimmers and a runner who got rocked on the bike. I too haven't wanted to do another triathlon because of the bike.

[ignoramous]

I have been following swimming on and off since 2004. I very vividly remember A Bernard (French) breathing heavily after a 100m relay split in 2008 Beijing (J Lezak produced an inhuman performance to take Gold for the US) and thinking... Those must be some really really really huge lungs: https://youtu.be/chwxaUtnfUk?t=7m45s

[curun1r]

Sub-competitive freediver here, so I thought I’d comment a bit on how my sport stresses the lungs and how the body adapts to that stress.

First a comment about the debates over how often you should breathe...almost certainly, those who advise breathing less often are right. People who haven’t trained in apnea and haven’t learned to tolerate high levels of CO2 in the blood always assume the urge to breathe has to do with not getting enough oxygen. But in those sessions where you were “audibly gasping for air,” you were mainly satisfying your urge to expel the CO2 that had built up in your body and, after 1-2 breaths, your oxygen levels were mostly back to a point where you could’ve started breathing normally again. Even after 5 minute breath holds, I try to only take 2-3 recovery breaths before I return to my normal breathing cadence. Breathing less often, since it sounds like breathing slows you down to some extent, should just be a matter of dealing with the discomfort of a higher build-up of CO2. If you were to specifically train for CO2 tolerance, that wouldn’t be that big of a deal. I’m actually somewhat surprised that apnea training hasn’t become an important part of training to be a competitive swimmer.

Secondly, there have been a few studies that have looked at the physiological changes that happen to extreme breath hold athletes, so those may be of interest to swimmers because they may experience some of the same changes. One study showed increased basal metabolic rate and ability for the blood to hold oxygen. It seems like the training makes the body want to store more oxygen and use less of it to convert stored energy reserves. It wouldn’t surprise me if swimmers saw some degree of those changes as well.

Lastly, one important difference between freediving and swimming is the effect on the heart. Freedivers are specifically focused on not putting stress on the heart. We try to relax and lower our heart rate to use oxygen as slowly as possible. Even in dynamic disciplines, the focus is on slow, relaxed strokes, even if that results in more time spent underwater. A freediver swimming 200m on a single breath (whether horizontally or vertically) will likely have fewer heartbeats during that swim than that 50m swimmer you described. But what’s interesting about that is that freedivers still experience some of the beneficial changes to the heart that swimmers and runners do. For instance, when I first took up the sport, my resting heart rate dropped to about the level mentioned in the article (below 60 bpm) and my blood pressure dropped to the point where my doctor was somewhat worried (90/56 at one point). I think there’s something to what you mentioned about putting pressure on the lungs. The heart and lungs are really one interconnected system and you can affect one by affecting the other.

[darkpuma]

> "in a 500+ race, there are big debates about whether to breathe every 2 or 3 strokes."

It seems to me that debate is less about lung capacity and more about breathing on one side or two (e.g. bilateral breathing.) For me it's always seemed obvious that bilateral swimming should be the desired ideal. Most of my peers favored one side or the other, because in the beginning they had a very slight preference and over time as they used that side only, that preference was reinforced to the point where it became downright awkward to breath on the "wrong" side. If you train against this from the beginning, it seems to me that your times will improve (if only because every three strokes is less breathing, which of course is faster, all else being equal) and you won't have to worry about any physiological asymmetries.

[GreedCtrl]

I think it's a tradeoff between resources and efficiency. The longer the race, the more you need to manage your air. Breathing more means a bit more drag, but also more energy to finish the race. Which option is better for you depends on your strength, endurance, distance, and probably many other factors.

Of course in training, ideally you would breathe to both sides—Michel Phelps alternates every 50.

[fc373745]

I disagree. breathing to one side usually every 2 strokes has been the ideal ever since 2008 200 free beijing. I switched then and now you're right in the sense that breathing to my strong side is awkward as hell, but I dont think i'll ever look back to every 3

[darkpuma]

I think switching once you're an established swimmer is going to be virtually impossible, at least if you want to be competitive. I think it's something that should be trained as early as possible. If any established Olympic swimmer tries to make the change, my guess is they won't be swimming at an Olympic level any longer, because breathing on a single side is a pretty good local maxima (only marginally worse than bilateral) but getting out of that local maxima would involve degrading your performance for however long it takes for bilateral swimming to feel just as natural, which might take years for all I know. I don't know if there are any top-tier swimmers who've ever made the switch and remained competitive, I've not looked into it that far, but I suspect there aren't.

I also belief (with no scientific evidence) that training bilateral from the beginning is even more advantageous for mediocre to poor swimmers, since the symmetry in breathing will make their form in general more symmetric and consequently more efficient. Obviously bilateral breathing is not necessary to achieve excellent form, as demonstrated by the vast majority of Olympic swimmers, but I believe it should make it easier for the common swimmer.

[dredmorbius]

I switched from strong-side to alternating late in my training (17, had been swimming for 10 years). It was awkward for a few weeks, but became comfortable. My times improved through this period.

[graphitezepp]

I really breathed more often than every 4 when 500m was my best event, is breathing that often really the common consensus?

[epmatsw]

I think so. If you watch someone like Katie Ledecky, she breathes every 2 strokes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQU_VWBF1uw

[trashface]

A kind of off topic question: in that video you can see that not only is Katie breathing every 2 strokes, but her stroke timing is "staggered" - 2 strokes, pause, 2 strokes, pause - like a heartbeat. I think Phelps does the same thing. Is this just a style thing or is it actually faster?

[GreedCtrl]

This is called galloping (might have other names too). In general, freestyle has two extremes: shoulder driven and hip-driven. Shoulder driven freestyle is faster but less efficient, and hip-driven is slower but more efficient. Galloping alternates between hip- and shoulder-driven strokes, which is why it seems uneven. This also allows the swimmer to take advantage of the motion of breathing to build more momentum. I don't know if it is truly faster or not though.

[trashface]

Thanks! They definitely didn't teach us to do it that way when I was a kid, but that was back in the dark ages. I'll have to try it to see if it works for me.

[xyhopguy]

I dont think this is settled -- I've seen world class swimmers do it both ways. Personally I find taking a long stroke after each breath more effective.

[fc373745]

breathing every 4 in a 500? damn you have massive lungs. Everybody i know that goes under 4:30 in the 500y breathes 2 though.

[AngeloAnolin]

Fascinating to know that swimmers (professional) employ breathing techniques, as well as being selective on which body part they choose to use during swimming events - given the ratio of how much oxygen is utilized when using a part of the body against not using it.

Does the size of the diaphragm also takes into factor on this scenario? I guess it might be because that would be the muscle that helps compresses the lungs to be able to take in the most amount of air possible.

[ahawkins]

This guy swims.

[czbond]

I am guessing that is a Blind app reference?

[SpikedCola]

I think it's a Silicon Valley[0] reference

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uMEE7eaaUA

[czbond]

Thanks for that ! I've always wondered what the genesis of it was....

[olivermarks]

I've run lots of trail marathons and halves and have pretty good aerobic function, but I've always had a big problem with breathing while swimming. Does anyone have any good links or thoughts on getting into a good breathing rhythm that doesn't involve running out of steam and ingesting water? My running breathing is very disciplined but it all seems to fall apart when I swim

[stormbrew]

Have you tried just using nose plugs/clips? There seems to be some variation in how well people can close off their nasal passage while underwater and often people who have more trouble with it sound exactly like this.

Personally I have to be blowing air out my nose at a pretty unsustainable rate to prevent water from coming in, so if I'm doing serious swimming I use clips. Not exploring this option when I was a kid made me resent and hate swim classes even though I loved being in the water.

[olivermarks]

i'll try that, thanks!

[Proof]

Hi! You typically want to breath out through your noise, then inhale through the mouth when you go for air.

Another tip that comes immediately to mind is try using a swimmer’s snorkel. At first, it’ll be really difficult to keep from water going into your nose but after a few practices, your nose and it’s canals will block out water as a reflex, enabling you to breath through your mouth the entire swim. Hope this helps and sorry for English!

[oarabbus_]

>I really don't think running compares in terms of how stressful the sport is on the lungs.

Sounds like words spoken by a person who's never run a competitive 800m race. Maybe if you said swimming just barely edges out running in lung stress... sorry, but this claim is simply comical.

[rscho]

Yeah... Except that if you run at your maximum capacity every day, you will get injured fast.

In swimming, everyday training (actually twice daily) is extremely hard because the length to which you can go without injury is further. Same as for say, cycling.

[oarabbus_]

Running is definitely harder on the joints.

On the lungs? Give me a break.

[jorvi]

> That said, running 400m sprints with small rest intervals is extremely hard on every part of the body and I found the muscle stress from running far greater than from swimming.

This surprises me greatly. If you look at the body of a professional runner vs. a professional swimmer the swimmer is much, much more built.

[frankbreetz]

If you look at sprinters compared to swimmers, I would say the sprinters are much more built. If you compare marathon runners to swimmers, it is the swimmer that is more built.

This brings up the interesting topic of anaerobic vs. aerobic exercise which running can be either. Typically one would think of anaerobic exercise as lifting weight or strength training, but sprinting is also anaerobic, meaning you are building muscles.

When you run at a slower pace you are conditioning your lungs and not your muscles as much. This is aerobic exercise, and why marathon runners are so skinny because they are more focus on lung capacity than muscle building.

When you sprint your muscles are actually being broken down and then when you stop they get rebuilt as stronger and larger muscles. This is the reason no one can sprint a marathon.

What is curious to me is that elite marathon runners "jog" at what I would consider being a sprint for myself. So, I wonder if sprinting would be an anaerobic or aerobic exercise for myself?

[hobbyjogger]

> What is curious to me is that elite marathon runners "jog" at what I would consider being a sprint for myself. So, I wonder if sprinting would be an anaerobic or aerobic exercise for myself?

Everyone has an anaerobic threshold (the level of exertion at which the body transitions from aerobic to anaerobic systems).[0] But your AnT is much, much lower than an elite marathon runner's due to years of training designed to increase running economy.[1]

So what is a sprint to you (e.g. anaerobic exercise) would be a jog to Kipchoge or Bekele (e.g. aerobic exercise). If you are able to run fast enough to make yourself gasp for air, you've just done some aerobic exercise!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold#Lactate_meas... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_economy

[tarsinge]

> What is curious to me is that elite marathon runners "jog" at what I would consider being a sprint for myself. So, I wonder if sprinting would be an anaerobic or aerobic exercise for myself?

As a rule of thumb, if you fail because specific muscles are burning and not working anymore it’s anaerobic (muscle limited), and if it’s because you’re out of breath and it’s more of a generalized pain it’s aerobic (cardio limited)

[DonaldPShimoda]

> If you look at sprinters compared to swimmers, I would say the sprinters are much more built. If you compare marathon runners to swimmers, it is the swimmer that is more built.

This comparison puts all swimmers in the same category, but there are sprint swims and distance swims too. Do you mean that most land sprinters are more built than all swimmers — both sprinters and distance?

(Just seeking clarification is all.)

[frankbreetz]

Yes, sprinters on land or water will be more built than distance swimmers/runners.

[anthonypasq]

yes

[nradov]

Who are you looking at? Professional 400m runners tend to be quite muscular, although more in the legs whereas swimmers have stronger upper bodies. It's only the long distance runners who look scrawny.

[dwighttk]

jacked torsos are often more visually impressive than jacked legs

[artwr]

True, but don't neglect leg day :)

[dwighttk]

I'm on a t-rex workout plan :D

[magic_beans]

That's not true. Guys with chicken legs look plain silly.

[dwighttk]

They do, but average legs and extreme torso looks more impressive than average torso and extreme legs.

[guiomie]

I think this applies for long distance runners, but sprinters are usually built.