[steven2012]

Right now I'm struggling with whether or not to leave. I'm currently at a well-known company, and I'm uncharacteristically happy because my WLB is the best it's been in my career.

However, I'm getting a bit bored and I also know I could make at least $50,000 a year more if I leave. Hell, even the new engineers joining my company at the same level are making more than I am.

But the culture and pay at my company is just good enough such that staying isn't a horrible decision. And I don't want to start studying dynamic programming again for my interviews (I've never used it except in interview environments, so I keep forgetting and losing the ability to quickly answer questions).

So yes, I could make a nice amount more (plus large sign on bonus) but WLB is good enough to keep me, at least for another year. I pick up my kids every day at school and I love it, it's worth the money for now.

[bmdavi3]

What if you went to your manager, or whoever you feel is the right person, asked if you could speak one on one, and said...

"I really love working at this company. The work is interesting, I love the people, the culture, <one more legitimate pro goes here>. But I also know I could be making X if I went elsewhere. I love the work I'm doing, and I want to keep doing it here, but I also don't want to be leaving money on the table. What can we do?"

This phrasing, pretty much verbatim, has worked really well for me in the past.

[readingnews]

I wish I worked at your firm. I once worked at a place and saved them millions in one year. At the yearly review, they said "well, that was some good work". That was the entire review. When I said "how about giving me an extra 1k a year (a bit less than others who had been there for a while were getting) I was told we had no extra cash. Well... wow, I just saved you like 1.5 million dollars. I am not asking for that, even spread out over 20 years I am asking for 20k.

I have been reading HN for years. I have no idea how you people have such nice jobs...

[naasking]

I think it's standard in this industry that you only advance by moving to another company. You can even move back after awhile and they'll suddenly be able to afford you at a much higher rate.

[moftz]

It seems like there is all the money in the world to hire new people but almost nothing for anything other than a cost of living raise.

[Waterluvian]

I think what's most telling is what you did after that meeting. Did you quit and go work elsewhere?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think companies should be so short sighted as to nickel and dime employees. But your one true source of leverage is to actually get up and leave.

[flukus]

There's a lot more leverage than that depending on the particulars of the story. It may have been OP that identified a saving that could be made and their leverage is a future unwillingness to identify such things. Maybe they'll stop questioning things and "code to spec" in future. Maybe they'll ignore those erroneous errors they notice throughout the day and wait for a bug report in production.

Companies that don't give raises can expect all of these behaviors.

[user5994461]

None of this is leverage. You're wasting your own time at best and will have less achievements to talk about in your next job interview.

Same thing if your next advice is to stop working 60 hours a week and overtime. This was a huge mistake and you should never have done this in the first place.

[Waterluvian]

To me that seems just plain immature.

[flukus]

It's immature to clock in, do exactly what you get paid for and clock out? If the company expected you to do more than that then they would compensate appropriately.

[readingnews]

Yes, I did leave. The real problem is: the only method of pay increase is leaving. Well, so now I am the "new guy" every two to three years. I have no real investment in the company, and they have none in me. Right or wrong, is that the workforce that we want to cultivate? I have not been at any company more than a few years because of this (literally, not boasting, I do something great, they recognize wow this person is great, and I receive nothing so I leave)... the problem is that as one ages, this gets old (no pun intended). Job hopping as an old person in an IT/tech field is not pretty, and probably not fashionable.

My concern is, how do new, young(er) people get raises? I would use my time as a cautionary tale... job hopping seems to fine at the start, but as you progress it gets worse. My issue is that I am still underpaid by a long shot. If I stayed at the first company I would still be making 1/3 of what I am now, but I am also making 1/2 of what the "new guy" makes. Not sure where this is all going (on a large scale, not my story), or how this is helping the country/economy.

[TylerE]

Don't ask for $1k in a situation like that.

Ask for $10k, maybe even 15 or 20.

It's harder to get them to say yes, period, since that requires actual action on somebodies part.

So you might as well make the bigger ask, and then if negotiation ensues you can "settle" and still get more than you would have gotten by asking for a smaller amount initially.

This can make it feel like a win for both sides.

[titanomachy]

"I have no idea how you people have such nice jobs..."

Crack one of the top 5 companies and you'll be set for life.

Most of them have offices around the world, although engineering tends to be focused in certain US and European cities. They might ask you to move there.

If you have the initiative and skill to identify a $1.5M cost-saving opportunity and execute it, you are probably good enough to work at Facebook (or wherever). Just practice interviewing for a couple weeks. Every class of question you could be asked is represented on Leetcode/Hackerrank/etc.

[mcv]

> I have no idea how you people have such nice jobs...

We get nice jobs by switching until we find a nice one.

[cannonedhamster]

So I've been at places that literally wouldn't give me a title increase with no monetary benefit. I'd saved them boatloads of money and doing far more than my job description. Upper management had a bonus structure based on cutting costs. Not actually performing the job, just how much they could cut.

I left that place and immediately made nearly 20k more per year, then next job another 25k, then another 20k and I'm now in a job where I get to set my own hours, work from home and get paid stupid amounts of money getting raises and bonuses I haven't even asked for. To this day I have no idea how I've gotten so damned lucky.

Some general things that have helped me, and believe me I started from self taught tech skills, poor people skills, and massive introversion, so chances are you're smarter than I am and able to do just the same if you're willing to put in the work.

1. Luck - not much you can do to get lucky, but you can stack the deck in your favor by making sure you're ready when your opportunity does come.

2. Know what you're looking for in advance. That means the salary, type of work environment, and position you're working for. If you're comfortable where you are position wise figure out how you're going to improve your skill set through either diversification or specialization. Diversification makes you more useful at startups, specialization at mid to mature companies. Being comfortable means you're not growing which means you're losing value from an employee standpoint because you're probably forgetting something every day.

3. Know how much you're looking for. Don't value yourself low. one way I heard which seemed to help was to start saying amounts in a mirror. When you got to a point where you thought it was silly ask for slightly higher. Worst they can say is no and you've lost nothing.

4. Be willing to walk when opportunity comes. Nothing says you're serious like walking away. Let's be honest if you're unhappy enough that you're looking externally, it's probably a sign you're ready to go anyways.

5. Be able to sell yourself. Know your past achievements and be able to show how your past achievements will be able to help the company make more money. Know what the company desires to do, who their current customers are, and what they're excited about. Nothing impresses a new company more than a prospective employee who has done their homework. I've literally had people come into interviews being told they would be asked about the company and been unprepared, they didn't get the job. For your current company, show them how you want to grow into a role that can give them more for the money. Being excited about your company and what they do is genuinely hard to find. Some jobs make it nearly impossible to do so, especially mature or more often dying companies.

6. People skills, people skills, people skills. If you suck at talking to people, get better. Toastmasters is good for speeches, church meetings for general conversations, friends groups, networking events, etc. If you're looking for step by step instructions look into the classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. It's old but it's a classic. Vanessa Van Edwards is younger but also provides really great information on learning to read people's body language, something which doesn't come naturally to me. Even if you're not in sales or management read books aimed at them. Chet Holmes is solid for sales information, James Collins for management. Knowing how your salespeople bring in clients and how your management thinks means you can often be the person who is solving their problems before they come up. Good salespeople and managers take care of people who make their lives easier, but they also lean on them more. Just never make the mistake of thinking that because they like you, compliment you, or take care of you that you're their friend. Unless a relationship exists outside of work it's a work relationship. Good salespeople and managers can make you feel great even when they are screwing you over.

7. Start doing good things for other people before they do them for you. If you know someone in your network is out of work and you're not looking but a recruiter sends you a job that you know they might fit, send it along. If someone left a job for different pastures, leave them a genuine recommendation or send them a personal message letting them know how much you appreciated them. People too often don't let others know how much they appreciate good people, and no one hates being genuinely appreciated.

I think I've blabbered on for long enough, but these are just a few of the guidelines I've worked through to get to have an amazing job. Hope you find yours. :)

[readingnews]

Those are some great points. I am not going to boast, but I do know most of them, and I was a manager of an IT team at a great organization that gave us proper, informed training, so most of these points are very familiar (we thought about the employee perspective). My current location does not offer any "real" jobs like some previous posters were pointing out (e.g. the big 5 or 10 companies). Oddly, I think getting in now would be very difficult. I was a Sr IT worker, then a Manager of Sr. IT workers, in addition to an enterprise architect. But I am getting older, and I think they want younger.

[theprotocol]

>I think I've blabbered on for long enough

I thought it was a great post. #7 in particular is excellent advice, which too few people practice.

[bmdavi3]

Thanks, that's a perspective I never got. Shows how lucky I've been at the places I've worked. (Or perhaps, how underpaid I was at the time!)

I should also mention that before these conversations, I had also been interviewing with a few different companies and gotten offers, so I knew those numbers were real and I really, truly, was ready to leave if they said no. But I genuinely wanted to keep working there and be making the salary I knew I could get elsewhere, and it worked out.

[cgriswald]

Hey. I don’t know you so take this for what it’s worth. But you asked for less than 0.01% of what you saved the company. Every single one of the people who decided you don’t deserve an extra 1K earned more than that because of what you did, either through salary, bonuses, or stock price increases. It’s possible you signaled that you don’t think you’re worth much by asking for as little as you did. Whatever it is, they believe (right or wrong) that you’ll continue to earn them money even if they don’t give you an increase. Don’t let them believe that even if you have to leave to do it.

[user5994461]

To add a third perspective where you're both wrong and unlucky.

People on HN do better jobs because many live in the major tech cities, where there are more and better jobs. In big part linked to the big companies and the high cost of living.

In most cases of raises, the employee could have got much better by moving to somewhere else. It's easier to give a few percent raise per year or one time than it is to match the 50-100% raise that high performer could get.

If you change jobs often enough, you will eventually end up in a good company with a good pay, where you can stay.

[alain94040]

This is the correct approach.

There is a very simple reason your employer doesn't give big raises to existing employees: they know that a year ago, you were happy with your salary. Why would you want a 30% raise today, no matter what the outside market says? You were fine last month, what changed between you and the employer? Nothing.

Of course, long term, if the market goes up a lot, people will be underpaid and eventually leave. If the market moves up, do use the parent's phrasing. Don't interview (too aggressive). Just state the fact that the market has moved and you want to stay.

[snovv_crash]

A year ago I had 1 year of experience with the company's tech stack, product portfolio and clients. Now I have 2 years of experience. If that isn't worth an extra 30% in value to the company, I'd rather provide that value where it's appreciated.

Sure, after a couple years there are definitely diminishing returns, but the company (mistakenly, IMO) thinking they can get the same value from a fresh hire as from someone who's been there for a while already is what has set up this whole culture in the first place.

[NeekGerd]

I was in this exact situation.

The WLB was awesome, good paycheck, good job, really good teammates. But that feeling of knowing you could do way more just by changing job is maddening.

But I had no recognition in my work which was really the worst part actually, for instance, over the course of a year, I increased the team efficiency by 2500%, working on the build/deploy time and feedback loop. They just told me that they didn't care about tooling, so it couldn't play in my favor for a promotion.

I deserved a raise and a promotion, I complained, during one on one(s), like 10s of them, on the course of a full year. They just didn't care. Basically what they told me, over and over, is that they were already paying the most in the area.

I finally left, for a 40% raise and a job that is way more recognised and enjoyable.

[inertiatic]

I did this a couple of weeks ago personally, and now I'm looking for a new job.

Theoretically it should work, as you're stating your intent to leave. In practice, employers will try and call your bluff.

[wsy]

The funny thing is, you really need to be willing to leave. HR and management can sense that. If it is only meant as bluff, it won't work.

[duiker101]

I can attest the same worked for me.

[readingnews]

Saying things like "I could make 50k more at blah" seems to be taken so lightly these days. I would party/panic/freak out like I won the lotto if you told me I could make 50k more somewhere else. 50k... do you have any idea what that does to your future earnings? Your 401k/retirement? Hell, even if you live the same as now, sticking 25K in the bank every year is worth a whole heaping spoonful of whatever hell they could possibly throw at you in the new position... but it seems almost daily I read about someone or hear about someone who says "eh, Ill pass on that 20/50/75/100k increase in salary, I'm not into "money"..."

I suppose all of those people already have their million in the bank for retirement... or are independently wealthy. Where do all of those people come from?

[war1025]

The Mexican fisherman story [1] is what it comes down to for me. You can work a little, play a little, and generally have a good time with life and get by (Mexican fisherman), or you can start a business, work long hours, build a fleet of boats that makes a ton of money, and then sell it all someday when you retire, at which point you can work a little, play a little, and generally have a good time. (American businessman).

For me, I make enough to get by and then some. Yes I could work harder, but life is pretty good this way.

[1] https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma...

[cannonedhamster]

The addendum is the Mexican fisherman doesn't have money in the bank if his boat gets destroyed in a freak storm, nor does he have enough to cover the insurance. He's also not taking care of his family or prepared if some oil company drilling in the Gulf of Mexico has a spill that completely destroys his livelihood. In fact the fleet of boats could effectively gain enough money to lobby the local government to set limits on fishing by private boats, setting the per boat fees more than the single fisherman could afford. None of what I've said has no legitimately happened to fishermen. I know it's analogy but the analogy fails on so many levels because it doesn't include preparing for external risks or things you can't control.

[salty_biscuits]

Or on the other side, the American businessman has ruined his health/personal relationships by overwork so that he can't enjoy the freedom he bought for himself. Or even more likely, can't bring himself to make the leap into the void and walk away from money, status and security and continues to burn away the little healthy youth he has left remaining working in the job he can't give up.

[joesb]

Not all job that pays more requires you to sacrifice your life. I would even argue the other ways that jobs that pay more usually require less from you, leaving you with more time to be with yourself and your family.

[scruple]

This has been my experience. The more money that I make, the more promotions that I see, even in face of the additional responsibilities, the more autonomy I enjoy.

[war1025]

Yea, but we're talking a tech job here, not working as a barista at your local artisan coffee shop.

[joesb]

Changing jobs to get more pay doesn't neccessarily means you have to work harder though.

[hopler]

The money isn't that great if you are miserable and your kids spend it after your funeral

[Aeolun]

That will happen to your money after your funeral regardless.

Not like you have any more use for it yourself.

[hopler]

Not if you have lower income and a job that makes you happier, which was the question up above.

[balfirevic]

> Where do all of those people come from?

Mostly (though not exclusively) from high-paying high-cost of living US metropolitan areas.

[user5994461]

London, Switzerland and some of the major Asian cities can also play in this league.

[lotsofpulp]

You’re not living the same lifestyle. Take a few international trips every year or live in or near a tier 1 city, or pay for a nice private school for the kids. Dinner and drinks out at non-fancy places is easy $100/person in a big city, vacations are $2k+ per person, private schools are $20k+ easy.

[war1025]

I was in a very similar situation at the end of last year. Young kids and a work life balance that couldn't be beat. Had a couple expenses pop up that aggravated my irritation at being underpaid to the point that I looked for a different job. Calculated out how much I thought I'd need to offset the work-life balance bit, and went out and got an offer for that amount. Actually accepted the offer but my employer said they'd match that offer, which was a much better outcome for me given the work-life balance part. I figure if it doesn't end up working out, the worst case scenario is I'll feel comfortable asking a higher salary next time I am on the job hunt. For now I'm living in the best of both worlds.

[lelima]

Thanks for Sharing your story, now my question is, how to ask for a raise?

-just, I want a raise will do?

[war1025]

I basically said, "Hey, I got this offer that is 50% more than what you're paying me, and I plan to take it." At that point I won whichever way things went down.

[neogodless]

I didn't see the WLB acronym in the article. Something like "whole-life benefits?"

ETA: Just remembered "work-life balance." Gotcha!

[Ma8ee]

I really wish people could stop using so many acronyms in general. Even though it usually is possible to guess, or in worst case google, the meaning, it always slow me down. I didn’t immediately understand WLB and I don’t remember seeing ETA meaning anything else that Estimated Time of Arrival before.

It just doesn’t take that long to write out the whole words.

[C1sc0cat]

Maybe we should use the Civil Service style and write out in full the first instance on an acronym.

[neogodless]

Oh crap, the irony. As you probably figured out, ETA => "edited to add."

[xiaodai]

Why don't you just ask for a raise if new people are making more than you?

[BenMorganIO]

I'd recommend a side project and see if you can start your own business. Sounds like a good time.