[perlgod]

You will be in a tough spot if you're in the USA. All the nice Nokias and decent low-tech phones are rapidly becoming useless as carriers phase out 2g (and even 3g) coverage to free up bands for LTE and now 5g.

If your "dumbphone" doesn't support VoLTE you'll be frustrated with dropped calls and spotty service everywhere. I know this from experience.

I settled on T-Mobile's only "dumbphone" - the Alcatel GoFlip [1]. It supports LTE, the battery lasts for days and it even has a rudimentary IMAP and CalDAV client.

I tried turning my smartphone into a "dumbphone" and using it less, but I honestly lacked the self-control to put the stupid thing down. Having a kid made me realize how many moments I was pissing away just scrolling.

These things are designed to be addictive, and some people (like myself) can't compete with the entire teams of "engagement engineers" many tech companies employ to exploit your dopamine-reward cycles.

I had forgotten what it was like to be alone with my thoughts. I feel as though I am rediscovering a part of my brain that was suppressed by having a boredom-prevention device at my fingertips all these years. Also other humans now look like phone-zombies everywhere I look. It's kind of dystopian honestly.

[1] https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-go-flip/

[stcredzero]

I had forgotten what it was like to be alone with my thoughts. I feel as though I am rediscovering a part of my brain that was suppressed by having a boredom-prevention device at my fingertips all these years.

Right. Necessity is the mother of all invention. Boredom can be a powerful necessity. If it weren't for the crushing boredom of the suburbs in the 80's, I would never have learned to code at the age of 11.

[brightball]

Loneliness is the same way. It can give people determination to come out of their shell, work up the courage to ask someone out, etc.

[Broken_Hippo]

I think you are mixing up loneliness and shyness. Loneliness can cause shyness and the other way around, but they are not the same thing.

Loneliness can be forced on you. I personally moved and since some girls at the new school decided (in the locker room) that I was lesbian, folks stopped talking to me. I found a very small group of friends the next year at high school.

These girls were half correct in their assessment, but that was no reason for the entirety of a school to decide I wasn't worth talking to.

Seriously, loneliness is awful. I should mention that I had no issues asking folks out later in life (when I became interested in such things).

This sort of thing might have been more common pre-internet times. The internet made me less lonely because I found folks I liked to talk to.

[B0btheBuilder]

There's a great episode of the "Hidden Brain" podcast about scarcity: https://www.npr.org/2017/03/20/520587241/the-scarcity-trap-w...

One claim made was that poverty and loneliness are two of the most difficult scarcity traps to be in. Even more so than hunger (especially in the developed world). Because poverty and loneliness push you into behaviors that only perpetuate more poverty and loneliness. You can see this with the rise of toxic misogynistic groups on the Internet, and I personally see this with my more awkward, lonely friends and acquaintances who put off new company with desperate, weird, or standoffish behavior.

[brightball]

Loneliness sucks...but at the same time at the point where you decide you’ve had enough of it and you realize you have the power to do something about it, it becomes a tremendous motivator.

Loneliness is curable, but requires effort.

[Broken_Hippo]

Because I had so many choices at 13. Because poor folks can simply move where they'll be more accepted. ? Because everyone should be willing to act like someone they aren't so they have people (that doesn't cure loneliness). Because loneliness cause by depression is always curable?

I'm happy you solved yours. I'm happy I solved mine. But I know not everyone can have the stroke of luck to change things like I have. Lots of folks have little choice, in part because of financial woes, mental illness, age, and so on.

NOt everyone is like you. Loneliness has never been a great motivator for me, and though I don't suffer from it like I did 10 years ago, the entire thing has left me with a negative view of people and their willingness to accept folks that are different - especially when they "should know better".

That last bit has been key to my own "cure", as I'm an immigrant and folks don't assume the same things.

[tanzbaer]

Or it may just crush you...

[bargl]

Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/theodore_roosevelt_103499

[retsibsi]

I was tempted to reply with a link to the wiki article for survivorship bias, but that would come across snarkier than I intend. Seriously though, this is a bit like taking advice on financial risk-taking from a startup billionaire.

[bargl]

Do you really think it's at that scale? I see that some adversity in life actually makes me better and some does not. It really depends on how hard it is to overcome each individual hurdle.

Keeping with the analogy of hurdles. It's like, successful startup is a 20 ft wall. Deciding to workout 3x a week is a 3ft hurdle. Getting a fitbit and targeting more walking is like a 2ft hurdle (my scales not everyone's). Getting over loneliness due to not having a cell phone is a 5 ft hurdle. It'd require getting out of the house a lot more and that anxiety can be crippling. If that was a goal of mine I'd train for it just like a marathon. You don't start by running the whole thing in the first week, you start with increasingly large goals.

I totally agree that blindly saying adversity is good, is a crazy over simplification. I also think we (if you are in top 60% of tax brackets just to really bound that statement) have it exceptionally easy in the USA and that we are all capable of much more than we think we are.

Not everyone can do a startup, but many of us have lost the concept of setting a goal and pushing ourselves (myself included).

Thanks for calling me out. A quote from T. R. could be seen as snarky as well. This really is a personal thing. I should have really put a caveat that this applies to me. Just me. I think more people would benefit from the mentality, but I also don't believe in a society that pushes artificial adversity to "make people better" that'd be bad.

[Arnavion]

>You will be in a tough spot if you're in the USA. All the nice Nokias and decent low-tech phones are rapidly becoming useless as carriers phase out 2g (and even 3g) coverage to free up bands for LTE and now 5g.

Anecdote: I used to have an LG dumbphone with AT&T (I'd purchased it with prepaid time at the airport). A few years ago they sent me a message to come to their store and have it replaced for free because it would stop working with their planned "network updates".

I did that and got an Alcatel dumb phone. Not sure if it's using LTE or whatever G, but it works well and I'm reasonably happy with it. I do wish it was a flip-phone like the LG, because I've butt-dialed 911 a few times with it.

(They did initially give me what must've been a used phone, since it had over 50 personal contacts from someone else on it, but that's a different story...)

[crazynick4]

> I tried turning my smartphone into a "dumbphone" and using it less, but I honestly lacked the self-control to put the stupid thing down

Did you remove the browsers and app store as well? I got rid of everything except for phone/texting, Slack (for work), and non-bingy convenience apps like Maps/Yelp/etc. On Android, it can be done with the adb shell without rooting, even the 'uninstallable' apps like Google search and the Samsung browser. Not sure about Apple.

I tried this before without getting rid of the Play Store and found that I would just cheat and download FF Focus when I felt like binging and then deleting it again when I was done. Now if I think I need a new app, I actually have to go on my laptop, download the apk, and move it to my phone to install it. It's not foolproof but it's enough extra steps to where I don't act on it on impulse.

It's worked really well and I don't binge like I used to . I still have some compulsive phone-checking habits but it's way less time consuming than compulsive-random-article-reading/scrolling. And I also get to keep the nicer benefits like the good camera and the large screen for when I need a GPS.

[boznz]

Just change your plan to have no data (hint the cheapest pay and go) turn off mobile data and wifi and voila a dumb phone works with my old sony.

[HNLurker2]

Or just use third party app to block and let only a few: -https://offtime.es

[perlgod]

I should try something like that. Honestly just having the device in eyesight triggers some kind of latent mental FOMO. Removing the option entirely has worked well for me so far.

I still keep an old iPhone for when I know I'll need an Uber or something, but the smartphone isn't a part of my daily life anymore.

[crazynick4]

If I could go with a flip phone I gladly would, but I do need to have Slack around for when I'm on call for work. I suppose I could switch to a flip phone for when I'm off call. You're giving me ideas here.

[leesalminen]

You could also use Slack’s API + Twilio to trigger a SMS to send when a post to #app-outage happens. I’ve been playing with this myself.

[ip26]

I try that but then I wind up needing Chrome for some legitimate purpose or another.

[paulcarroty]

> Did you remove the browsers and app store as well?

It's possible with adb or root, but buy a $500-$800 device for removing basic apps? Failed logic IMHO.

> Not sure about Apple.

You can't.

[Double_a_92]

You can get a decent smartphone for under 200$.

[sincarne]

No, but you can use the Restrictions control pane to block Safari.

[mikelward]

Great idea! I guess that way you don't get app updates tho?

[crazynick4]

The apps you'd have to uninstall/reinstall manually for updated versions but I did still get a few official Samsung updates come through recently so I guess those aren't tied to the Play Store. I think at least one of those reinstalled some of the apps I had removed but other than that it went ok.

[javiramos]

"Also other humans now look like phone-zombies everywhere I look."

Just this morning I saw someone take a brief pause while crossing the street to look at her phone unaware that a car was coming. She stopped in the middle! of the street. The car screeched to a halt and missed hitting her by nothing.

[yeahsure]

My phone screen broke last night. Today I took a small break and sat at a bench in front of my office. I noticed how most people were looking at their phones. Even if they were with others. It's been quite a while since I noticed this and it honestly disturbed me.

The thing is, most of these people are (most likely) not even looking at something important, just their social media or messaging apps.

I noticed a girl who was talking to someone on the phone. She hanged and put the phone in her pocket. Not 10 seconds later she took it out and just started scrolling while walking past me.

[c1sc0]

Today is spent a full 30 seconds driving at a crawling pace behind a guy so immersed in his phone that he didn’t notice he was walking in the middle of the street.

[rlue]

I have a (slightly) more optimistic view of seeing everyone on their phones all the time. When you're on your computer at home, you withdraw into it, too. It's your cave. Phones give people a way to get into their caves anywhere they want. It's like everyone's out in their PJs, trying to have private time in a public place.

Obviously, it's a very bad thing when someone decides not to leave her mental cave while strolling through traffic (worse still if she's behind the wheel). I just think it's a more humanistic view than the zombie angle.

[faitswulff]

> These things are designed to be addictive

I would blame app designers, but I uninstalled all of them and ended up pissing away most of the day on HackerNews, so I think they're mostly blameless in my case.

[drivers99]

HN has many of the same addicting qualities.

You never know what you'll get when you reload (after some time has passed) (Random reinforcement.) Also, if you comment, you get random reinforcement in the form of (hopefully nice) replies and upvote points.

Ranking stories on the front page based on voting also is intended to draw an audience with similar interests.

[plants]

Hacker news is addicting, but there is a noprocrast setting that only allows you on the site for maxvisit minutes at a time and doesn't let you back on until minaway minutes have expired. I just turned it on this week and it has changed my browsing habits immensely!

[frosted-flakes]

Yeah, but changing it back is just two clicks away, and I don't have the discipline to not do that.

[faitswulff]

Unfortunately, I use Firefox Focus, meaning I'm not logged in most of the time. However I may use this for my desktop addiction, thank!

[stcredzero]

I uninstalled all of them and ended up pissing away most of the day on HackerNews, so I think they're mostly blameless in my case.

All of us HN commenters are also engagement designers. If not in our day jobs, then at least in an amateur capacity in text.

[localhost]

I've been doing this using an Apple Watch, and have been for the past 3 months or so. I documented it in this tweet: https://twitter.com/john_lam/status/1074527089569615872

Note that I'm paying more to have this experience, but it's been totally worth it. So far I've been quite happy with it. It's amazing how, in the odd times where I've needed to carry my phone with me, how I instantly reverted to my former (bad) habits.

It's a form of commitment device and it's been very effective for me.

[flanbiscuit]

In my last company (ad agency) we were talking to Dopamine Labs[1] (now called boundless.ai[2]) to integrate it into an app we were building. It honestly felt kinda gross but I on the other hand I can understand a company investing thousands (into the hundred thousands) to build an app and wanting people to use it.

Does more engagement equal app usefulness and adoption? I don't know. I have a lot of apps on my phone I don't touch as often but when I go and clean out apps I don't use anymore I still keep some because I still find them useful to have even if I don't engage with that much

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/08/meet-the-tech-company-that...

[2] https://www.boundless.ai/

[Skunkleton]

> Does more engagement equal app usefulness...

Obviously no. I think it is fairly obvious that there are many apps that are highly engaging that are a huge waste of time for many people.

[hammock]

> Does more engagement equal app usefulness

No, but it equals more ad impressions.

[fjp]

Surprisingly effective way to make your phone less addicting: put it in greyscale

[Shakahs]

It's not just degrading coverage, Verizon no longer allows 3G device activations and is shutting down the 3G network completely on 12/31/2019 [1]. ATT is doing the same in a few years.

Interestingly, they are also no longer activating 4G devices unless they support HD Voice, so the iPhone 5s and 5c are out even though they support LTE.

[1] https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/knowledge-base-21881...

[checkyoursudo]

I was looking at getting one of those Alcatels. Can it broadcast a wifi hotspot, such that you could tether a laptop or tablet? I couldn't tell from the listed specs.

[yurishimo]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it can't. I agree it's not obvious from the spec sheet though. It's most likely made for an aging demographic that can't be bothered to even learn how to use a smartphone, so hotspot connectivity probably won't be missed.

[kwoff]

Had one of those dumb phones for a decade. Definitely not interested in connecting to your demographic.

[paulcarroty]

Yes, it can: https://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-35636

[perlgod]

It can!

[movedx]

> I tried turning my smartphone into a "dumbphone" and using it less, but I honestly lacked the self-control to put the stupid thing down.

Got a wife/husband/best friend that you trust? Use iOS or Android's built in systems for restricting what you can do on your phone, from what websites you can visit to being able to install apps, and lock them in place with a pin... that your trusted partner sets. Now you have no choice.

Worked for me.

[isoskeles]

Dumb question: Can it run a 2FA app (not over SMS) like Duo or Google Authenticator?

[dontbenebby]

Almost certainly not. This has been a barrier for me too.

What I've done is started putting the phone in do not disturb and airplane modes when I'm not expecting a call.

[plants]

I tried using that phone, but I found Kai OS to be pretty awful from a usability perspective. Maps was completely unusable - which was a large reason why I bought the phone in the first place. On top of that, the texting app is extremely laggy to the point where you'd wait a second for a word to show up. I don't know if the problem is with Kai OS or with the apps themselves, but my Samsung A-157 blows that phone out of the water from a texting usability perspective (but does not have GPS)

[EvanAnderson]

How's audio (MP3) playback on the GoFlip? I'm disenchanted with my options to replace my aging iPhone 4 (frustrated that old, unsupported 32-bit apps I like aren't going to work on a new iPhone) and I'm contemplating jumping-ship to a "dumb" phone. I would really like to play MP3s on the phone, however.

[perlgod]

I would imagine it's pretty bad. The interface is pretty slow and T9 is just frustrating enough for me to just call people instead. The call quality is great though!

I use a HiBy R3 [1] with a 512gb SD card to listen to my collection of ripped FLACs on the go. It's a great device, highly recommend!

https://store.hiby.com/products/hiby-r3

[plants]

You can play MP3s, but the user experience for the music app is pretty bad in my limited experience using it

[kemps4]

I also have recently acquired an Alcatel goflip- mostly to minimize distractions (I am a student - need time to study). It does what I need. It allows me to have time without a swiss army knife of distractions (including things we ought not look at) and still lets me make a call or pull up directions. Go ahead, free yourself.

[torvald]

A quick search and it does not seem to be available for sale in Europe.

[paulcarroty]

ebay.com