[SideburnsOfDoom]

> help diversify the tech ecosystem in Berlin and give them access to facilities and other resources.

Another way of looking at that, is "gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists". It's not new (1)

I don't necessarily agree with that framing, but it is understandable and coherent, not a misunderstanding

1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18282143

[pteredactyl]

The mutual exclusivity is naive at best.

To me, it shows haters' level of intellect. And perhaps explains why they feel left out. They're attached to an ideal of what 'art' (additionally, activism[1]) should be. An outdated, 20th century one.

I personally don't like Google. And I understand your framing is hypothetical.

But why is tech framed the opposite of art?

Why is tech equal to techbro?

Yea there are always bad apples. But I wonder what Da Vinci would think about holding art in the opposite category as tech?

I'd argue they're more synonymous than opposite. To me, there's creativity. Both art and tech are creative. Applied creativity pertains to both code or a paint canvas.

Either way, the best, most valuable work to society is often never been done before.

Can anyone name an art piece (or if I'm being generous, an art movement) in the last 15 years that's made the level of impact as Google? Or cryptocurrency?

Ultimately, to me, the 'artists' need to up their game. Big time.

[1] Protest city hall if you feel gentrified. Especially in SF where it's largely illegal to build housing. Also, regarding gentrification, you don't hear the positive stories of immigrant families whose businesses flourish because of increased capital in an area, or those who feel safer, or even those who cashed out and sold their 50k house for 1.2 million. Again you hear a largely misdirected, dated and one-sided argument.

[eigenvector]

The mutual exclusivity is valid. Being able to do stuff that requires a lot of time and doesn't make a lot of money (i.e. art) requires a low cost of living. Adding a bunch of people making $200k+ into a neighbourhood does the opposite of that, very rapidly and very predictably.

[jkaplowitz]

Most people working for tech startups (as opposed to for Google itself) don't make anywhere near that salary, especially not outside the major US tech hubs. This campus would have been a startup incubator, not a regular Google office.

That said, yes it would have still contributed to gentrification in a less extreme way than a true Google office.

[ehnto]

A low cost of living is also a benefit to bootstrapped software/web companies (small blogs, niche publishers, other online content creators).

But gentrification still happens without big dollar companies showing up. It's often a side effect of the success of the arts in the area. As the wealthy kids move in to be hip and cool, and the businesses that enjoy their money move in afterward, rents go up and creators are pushed out.

[xapata]

If you want to be a professional artist, you need people to buy your art -- patrons. In cities without a large number of wealthy people (passing through, if not resident), there aren't many art galleries.

Artists often live in different districts or even different cities than their gallerists, but they tend to appreciate their patrons.

[amanaplanacanal]

This may not be relevant, but the great majority of artists will never be professional. Most do their art because they love it, and if they can make some money from it, that is just frosting.

[xapata]

Not relevant, I think, because we're talking about professional artists. Anyone can be a hobbyist, including the gentrifiers.

[rumcajz]

As being from an artistic community and a programmer at the same time, I can empathize with both sides.

However, it should be pointed out that there are really two different programmer cultures. There the corporate one, and then there's, for lack of the better word, "open source" one. The latter is very close to artistic culture but very different from corporate culture. The people are working on what they love, they don't have much money, often they are in precarious situations. I've seen them sharing working space with artists, I've been at parties that mixed hackers and artists without any friction. I've seen self-help institutions meant to help the artists going out of their way to host some kind of strange hacking event.

[mercer]

One of the things I like (and sometimes hate) about HN is that it has a decent number of people from both those camps.

[sonnyblarney]

Berlin is big, and Germany is much bigger, and there are tons of places for artists. Even in Berlin.

[VonGallifrey]

The issue is that Google wanted to go to the very specific and small space in Berlin where tons of artists are. Berlin is "big" (although not as big as you might think), so why would Google need to be in Kreuzberg when it can be ANYWHERE else.

[mercer]

The main issue is that all the programmers want to live in Kreuzberg too...

[derEitel]

I'm doing a PhD in Berlin, living in Kreuzberg and I can tell you far from all of the programmers that I know want to live here!

What makes Kreuzberg attractive for startups and a Google campus is that it's central and perfectly connected infrastructurewise. Most other regions like Schöneberg, parts of Friedrichshain, Prenzlauer Berg and maybe Moabit, are all harder to reach from some other regions, even though more start-up employees live there. You can see on the maps of rental e-scooters like Coup how during the day there is a lot of activity towards Kreuzberg whereas after work the district is basically empty of their scooters. Imho kreuzberg is too dirty for most startupers. I guess they don't want to see the heroin junkies of Kotti when they do their grocery shopping.

In general I liked the sentiment of the activists against placing a Campus in Kreuzberg. Nevertheless I didn't like much of their public attitude ("bullets for google") and some arguments seemed superficial ("other Google campuses have increased rents" idk about the causality and factor here). I wouldve liked a Google campus in Schöneberg for example, just as I liked the Google campus in Madrid. In Madrid it offered a nice environment for work, some interesting talks and I didn't feel like it was in an artsy district that suddenly gentrified and turned hip. This could've added something to Berlin, but meddling with the activist scene in Kreuzberg was a poor choice.

[hn_throwaway_99]

I think your comment is extremely patronizing and arrogant ("To me, it shows haters' level of intellect.") and a "let them eat cake" attitude that to me shows a clear lack of understanding of why people have become so anti-tech over the past 2 decades.

[avip]

I think we should stop using these empty terms in discussion. They contribute nothing, it’s just ad hominem.

[blablabla123]

Yup, on both sides of the argument. But in any way, there is some deeper truth here, the whole discussion went ad hominem already years ago.

Also it sucks for "the good guys" - literally - that tech has a bad reputation in that sense and on the other hand this is improving only so slowly.

On the other hand it's of course naive to say that artists are good people per se, that is just not true. This is almost biblical, considering that artists are always poor and thus good. We all need to progress, not only people in tech.

[kadendogthing]

They're not empty terms. They're appropriate qualifiers. And they're not even close to being ad hominem. Don't invoke logical fallacies if you don't understand their usage.

[mrzool]

> The mutual exclusivity is naive at best.

Your comment shows utter ignorance about what's happening — or already happened — in virtually every major city in every developed country.

[wbl]

How are Tokyo housing prices? Vienna's cost of living is kept down by large amounts of social housing, etc. Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.

[hnzix]

> Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.

The pattern I've seen (excluding SF) is that an arty area becomes trendy because of its culture, then a bunch of real estate developers kick out all the artists to build high-density housing while bringing in residential zoning laws (no live music etc).

The artists flee somewhere cheaper, build up the culture, rinse and repeat, until you end up with somewhere like Sydney Australia that's had all its culture surgically removed.

[wbl]

Imagine if we permitted apartments in Forrest Hills.

[askmike]

That's cherry picking, it's happening in virtually every major city in every developed country.

> Gentrification is a side effect of not building housing.

It's a much more complex than simply lack of housing. It's commonly described to neighborhoods, not cities.

[globe1337]

you sound like that rick and morty copypasta. embarrassing.

[kadendogthing]

Just so you know, your entire comments reacts of bitterness and ignorance. You think their view point on art is stuck in the 20th century, but that's only because you clearly don't understand the type of community you're dealing with. In fact your view point seems extremely myopic and appears to be constrained around your own motivations and hobbies.

>But why is tech framed the opposite of art?

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue. It's not tech vs. art. It's a "here's these people that make a lot of money and end up just being really big consumers" vs people that are the "creatives." The type that give a neighborhood flare.

Consider a programmer who perhaps love the "art" of programming and spends the majority of their time coding/tinkering without compensation (a rare prospect these days, admittedly), versus someone who works at a corporate job, does what they need to do, and goes home. Neither is better than the other, but they will end up creating radically different communities.

>Why is tech equal to techbro?

Because it's just the type of people it attracts these days. Name one neighborhood where a group of IT people came into that neighborhood and made it a creative space. Without fail, it just becomes a giant consumer hub with absurd rent prices. Artists tend to congregate in areas with other artists and areas that have cheap rent. Tech tends to drive up rent, and it certainly isn't an industry that attracts artists not centered around digital design.

>Or cryptocurrency?

The technology that did absolutely nothing, soaked up huge amount of raw resources, so techbros could play a game about who's going to be left holding the bag?

This is exactly why I used the term myopic. You might find it interesting and cool, and that's great! But it hasn't done anything for anyone else outside the tech sphere. In fact it's actually pretty easy to argue it's been a net-negative across the board.

[pteredactyl]

I'm bitter and ignorant?

I've lived in these communities of 'creatives'. For years. I know its a lot of drugs, idealism and not a lot of action.

Except for complaining about how wronged they've been by the system. Is that your 'another world is possible'? So maybe I am bitter...

Don't get me wrong, the system is fucked up in many ways. And I agree with your distinction of a grey blandness that permeates the tech culture.

I'm more interested in how all the enlightened 'creatives' can engage with this boring grey techbro community. Because frankly, they're the ones paying for most of their free shit.

[kadendogthing]

I said the statement reeks of bitterness and ignorance. It wasn't a wholesale description of you as a person. It's not black and white.

>Except for complaining about how wronged they've been by the system.

You're still operating off of stereotypes instead of actually talking about the people that live in these communities and the work they do.

>I'm more interested in how all the enlightened 'creatives' can engage with this boring grey techbro community.

I think the techbro community needs to be the one doing the engaging.

[Kalium]

You're right! The tech community absolutely needs to put forth the effort to engage with people who are unlike them. People who live different lives, have different bodies, and make different choices.

I hate to be the one to say it, but in some cases I can see why some people might be reluctant to engage. I know that for my own part, I am generally disinclined to engage in genuine, kind, compassionate, and empathetic ways with people who treat me with what can feel like open hostility. It's almost always less emotional labor to tell them "Have a nice day" and walk away, putting them out of my mind. My making this choice does nothing at all to further any kind of constructive engagement, and certainly nothing to improve their lives or alleviate their pain and suffering, but it does make my life easier that day.

Again, you're completely right. Techrbos need to engage! It's just that at times it can be challenging to convince people of this basic truth when they find unfriendly receptions.

[kadendogthing]

> in some cases I can see why some people might be reluctant to engage.

Within the tech community, it's really just ego and myopic view points and experiences.

>convince people of this basic truth when they find unfriendly receptions.

As a matter of practicality, it's easier to deflate the obstacle.

[malvosenior]

A lot of developers who work at places like Google also:

* Develop software on the side for free (art)

* Work on open source software during working hours sponsored by their host company

* Can afford to have families (I notice "vibrant" communities didn't include those with children in them)

> Or cryptocurrency?

Like it or not, Bitcoin is very artistic. Innovative, novel, spurs conversation and strong reactions...

I think it's you who's actually stuck in the 20th century mentality. Cultivating urban hipster hotspots full of "artists" is pure 20th century bohemian chic.

[Xylakant]

The building was originally renovated by ID Media, one of the largest digital media/web development companies in Berlin at the end of the nineties. It’s been filled with IT companies ever since they went bankrupt and currently has an incubator as one of the renters. It’s never been full of artists for the last 20 years.

So while I’m not surprised (and very much not sad) that the plans didn’t work out for a host of reasons I really don’t think that the campus would have led to substantial gentrification in that region.

Disclosure: we (still) have our office in the complex.

[cyphunk]

The mere mention of google already turned up into most housing and office space sale adverts. The effect on housing costs is real but the amount debatable. Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years and protestors are looking for symbolic wins to make the city more urgently address the problem.

[Xylakant]

> Rents in the neighborhood have gone through the roof the past couple years

Exactly my point. The rents are on the rise with our without google. I really don't think that the victory is anything but a symbolic win. It does nothing to push the city to solve that issue.

[cyphunk]

Companies paying workers 3 to 10 times the average wage for an area adds real stress. Berlin's problems are that, and also:

+ A global shift toward freelance and remote work letting people take a risk and move to a new place.

+ The first German renaissance back toward the east after the wall fell. The older generation in the west still remember Berlin and people from Berlin in a negative light, but their children have quiet a different impression and their parents are alltohappy to buy property for them in under-priced Berlin. Additionally reunification gutted all industry in the east causing a renter exodus to larger east German cities

+ A global debt surplus and rich people everywhere looking for stable places to stash wealth with Germany's open markets an attractive destination. In some odd way financially conservative Germans think they win with this, not considering how it increases costs of all social services and thereby their tax burden as well.

Focusing on overpriced jobs is definitely only one of many places to start. Google just made it very easy that people target them first because their products are so disliked for their lack of care for privacy: post-snowden I'm not sure I know of a single service Google has switched to being e2e encrypted.

[marcell]

Since when is a bunch of nerds “techbros”? I really hate this term. If I like programming and computers and databases, am I a techbro? Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

[Barrin92]

Nobody dislikes a good-natured nerd. As someone from Germany maybe to give some local perspective, what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city.

That's the sort of thing that invokes the image of a "tech bro" and this is what people don't want in Berlin. People don't want the local scene replaced with overpriced chain stores and electric scooters and multinationals dictating city development policy.

The CCC has its roots in Germany and we've always had a hacker and nerd friendly culture.

[sonnyblarney]

"what people here really don't like is the sort of tech entrepreneur who builds themselves a castle in the middle of the city, considers the local population to be "riff-raff" and doesn't respect the communal nature of a city."

What on earth are you talking about?

Who are these magical people who build castles?

And Berlin is not hugely more 'communal' than anywhere else.

[StudentStuff]

Amazon, Google, Facebook. Look at the castles they've built in Seattle, you aren't getting in unless you are an employee or are escorted by an employee. None of those companies need this level of security, and most other businesses you can literally wander into during office hours, but that is generally not the case with these three.

[sonnyblarney]

You are not allowed into any corporate office, in any city - unless you work there.

Every company definitely has security, even small one's, and this has nothing to do with the FANGs.

Try to waltz into the UBS or Deutchebank building and see if you can just wander around.

Most banks have considerably more security than the FANGS and ever since 9/11 many NYC buildings have a ton of security.

You need to get a visitors badge with a photo they take of you on the spot to simply go to a meeting in some towers in the US. You need 15 minutes just to get in.

[StudentStuff]

> You are not allowed into any corporate office, in any city - unless you work there.

Not sure what you've been exposed to, but having wandered many office towers up and down the west coast, vanishingly few have any form of security beyond perhaps a receptionist or a maintenance man who may harass you if requested to do so. Some do have elevators that attempt to enforce access control during certain hours, but this is generally a non-issue in the daytime.

> You need to get a visitors badge with a photo they take of you on the spot to simply go to a meeting in some towers in the US. You need 15 minutes just to get in.

This is an extremely rare request, and complying with it is consistently not worth it in my experience.

[jtolmar]

It started a few years ago when there were stories about how many new programmers don't have the traditional nerdy background and instead there are an increasing number of frat boy stereotypes getting in on the industry because it's lucrative (brogrammers). It slowly warped into a convenient catch-all for both misplaced anger at tech workers for causing gentrification* and frustration at a class of people who oblivious to social and economic problems, oblivious to how much power they have, and who think everything can be fixed with an app or the most intellectually lazy application of libertarianism.

* Gentrification is caused by landlords. If being a landlord was illegal it wouldn't happen (or at least the problems caused by it wouldn't).

[malvosenior]

What makes "artists" better to live around than "techbros"? Having lived in my fair share of neighborhoods inhabited by both, I can say neither is better/worse than the other.

It's basically the difference to people living off their parent's money (artists) vs. people living off money they make themselves (tech workers).

[sonnyblarney]

"gentrify the vibrant neighbourhood by trucking in techbros to displace the artists"

Or bring very high paying jobs that Germany desperately needs, and allow great students to actually do something with their education, which would in turn enable a poor neighbourhood to thrive with ancilliary businesses, restaurants, taxis etc. etc..

[jtolmar]

Gentrification doesn't benefit the people who actually live there. The block gets nicer buildings and more services, but land isn't people. People in poor neighborhoods rent, so when the cost of the neighborhood goes up they just lose money until they leave, and take on the costs of moving themselves. This is pure downside for them, of course they'd be against it.

[usrusr]

It's not that simple. For Berlin, counterculture vibe is an economic resource, more important even than being the seat of government. It's what lures companies like Google there in the first place. Google wanted to be in Kreuzberg instead of Mitte, just like they wanted to be in Meatpacking instead of Midtown. Many companies are content settling down in neighboring districts, well within car-less commute range from Kreuzberg, but Google, in an impressive act demonstration of bad judgment, thought that with enough money they could just buy right into the heart of it. Even on a strictly economic level, it makes perfectly sense for the city to not want that to happen, in the same way that Rome would be stupid to allow the construction of hotels on the ancient forum even though they would surely "create jobs".

The good thing is that Google eventually understood their error (you can't buy the friendship of people who will despise you for trying) because any attempt to achieve this through regulation would have been a total shitshow for everyone involved.

It's basically the same story as the Chelsea Market building, but with gritty Berlin punks instead of cute but toothless Greenwich Village and in an environment where even rich conservatives agree with the left that money cannot overrule everything else. It's really not surprising that it turned out differently.

[tomjen3]

If you can replace techbros with $MINORITY and the artists with white people, you can see why I have no sympathy for that argument, or the people who put it forth.

[SideburnsOfDoom]

And yet the results are the exact opposite - when the tech scene moves in, prices and rents go up. It's clearly not a good analogy if it produces the opposite result.

[aesh2Xa1]

The article lists that reason (gentrification) explicitly. The only other one given in there is that Google is evil (data collection, tax evasion, etc.). Someone else pointed out that the type of hosted campus would not lead to the same gentrification when the startups don't offer high salaries, but I think the point is still valid. At least, I do not know of another Google campus where this was not the case... I could be wrong.

As an aside, I dislike the term "techbro." It's obviously pejorative and I hardly ever see anything kind used to describe men working in the IT/CS sector. Just that and "neckbeard."