[throwaway487548]

Oh, come on. Most parts of Asia have no notion of a small talk, moreover, it is considered impolite and sometimes even silly.

Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm, and you see, it is OK for a few billions or so.

[jpatokal]

> Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm

This does not describe Finland at all. If you go to a convenience store in Japan and buy a pack of gum, the clerk will go through an elaborate script of welcoming you to the store, reciting how much your purchase costs, how much cash they receive from you, how much change they give you in return, and thanking you for your custom. In Finland, more likely than not you can complete exactly the same transaction without either party saying a word (except maybe the clerk telling you the total).

[ahje]

> In Finland, more likely than not you can complete exactly the same transaction without either party saying a word.

I don't think I've ever paid for a purchase without being told what the total is or being asked if I would like a receit.

Like ever.

[stevekemp]

Yeah the receipt thing is a little surprising, as a foreigner. Literally everybody reads out the total, and asks if you want one. Most of the time I say no, but sometimes I want one.

I started to feel a bit more relaxed when I could go to the corner-shop and buy food without having to understand much Finnish, and the constant repetition helped me learn my numbers.

(Now and again a staff-member will confuse me by asking "Would you like anything else?" or "Is that all?" which throws me off. The only other questions I expect to be asked are "Would you like a bag?" or "Do you have a store-card?".)

[jpatokal]

True, they will usually tell you the total cost. Amended.

[lasagnaphil]

I think the Japanese clerk’s elaborate script is just an educated formality rather than a sincere conversation...

[chrisseaton]

> just an educated formality rather than a sincere conversation

So small talk, then.

[lasagnaphil]

I think it is a little different than smalltalk. When people smalltalk, no matter how shallow the conversation is, there is still an intention to “get to know” with each other. But in the cashier example, the cashier does not have any goal to forge a relationship with the customer, but will repeat the same thing over and over because that’s what they’re told to do in the manuals.

[throwaway487548]

> an intention to “get to know”

Not necessarily. It seems like major motivators (not necessarily consciously realized) are to show off and to talk about oneself.

Cosplay of intelligence is another big motivator - how could one possibly look like he have nothing to say?!

[darkerside]

Because it's the polite etiquette, not because they are programmed like robots.

[SilasX]

No. Small talk is, by definition, incidental to the functional, "business" parts of the transaction. It excludes things like: "Your total is $X". "Out of the $Y you gave me, your change is ..." -- i.e., the things the GP was describing in Japan.

Edit: "Welcome to the store [some mini sales pitch]" might count as small talk, but is not what most people have in mind.

[hrktb]

The difference would be that it’s one sided, there is no expectation of response.

It’s so funny when sometimes the clerk has been doing it that job so long that it’s not proper words anymore and you’re not even expected to parse it correctly, it just doesn’t matter.

[SilasX]

Which is a sad state of affairs. I like it when words have meaning.

[hrktb]

yes. Ironically replacing these repetitive roles with machines can give human staff a better chance to move to a supporting role and actually help.

[ekianjo]

It's not even small talk because it's like an automated message.

[mrhappyunhappy]

It's not even a formality, the response is mostly automated. They are taught to do this but after a while it just becomes something they say without thinking much. Part of it is so the boss is happy. If the boss sees employee not following the script they can get some serious talking.

[GolDDranks]

Bingo, they have a strict script which they stick to, and they has been trained for that. But I don't think that's what the grandparent was trying to say. He was trying to say that you don't get those kinds for "formalities" in Finland.

[apatters]

We're all generalizing in the extreme here, obviously, but having lived in both the East and the West, my observation would be that in Asian societies people are much less comfortable talking to strangers, and the script exists to facilitate interaction that otherwise simply wouldn't occur.

[varjag]

In Norway cashiers have to recite much of that (and ask if you want a receipt) due to regulations. So I wonder how much of 'custom' is that really in Japan too.

[vidarh]

My French-teacher in Norway told me this story as a way of relating how terse Norwegians tended to be relative to the French. She insisted it was about someone she knew, but I have no idea if it's true:

A Norwegian husband took his French wife to live in Norway. She was at home while he went to work, and after a few months he invited another couple home to dinner. Most of the conversation happened in French or English as she had not yet picked up much Norwegian, but when leaving, she wanted to try.

After they left, the husband asked her "why did you say 'pose' when they were leaving?" She asked if she'd gotten it wrong - it was what the cashiers always said as she was leaving the shop, so she'd assumed it was "goodbye". (for the non-Norwegians: 'pose' means bag, as in a shopping bag; they were asking if she wanted one) The idea that a one word utterance as she was leaving could be an insignificant question rather than wishing her good bye had not crossed her mind.

[Broken_Hippo]

Thank you for this - I got quite a giggle. I'm living in Norway and am from the states, and I sometimes do weird stuff like that. Lots of laughs from stuff like that, and I'm quite happy the spouse is Norwegian to laugh and explain that stuff.

[Symbiote]

It was days rather than months, but I had similar confusion in Denmark over cashiers asking if I'd like the receipt as I was leaving.

Of course, with the additional difficulty of Danish pronunciation, I wasn't able to search for the words, and didn't try and repeat them.

(pose → purse, if you like to learn with cognates.)

[swebs]

Cashiers almost always say hi to you in Finland. Then they list the price, then usually ask if you want a receipt, then say thanks. It's pretty rare for them to deviate from the script.

[bluetomcat]

A similar kind of formality used to be a thing in Western culture, at least up until the 1980s.

Watch any kind of TV show from back then and notice the formality in the clothing of presenters, the substantially more discernible pronunciation, the vocabulary. The cultural shift towards informality is a recent trend in the West.

[eesmith]

One should be careful basing observations on what is shown on TV. As an extreme example, it would suggest that most couples did not sleep on the same bed during the 1950s.

There was also a cultural fashion in the US to use a "Mid-Atlantic accent". Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent :

> The Mid-Atlantic accent, or Transatlantic accent,[1][2][3] is a consciously acquired accent of English, intended to blend together the "standard" speech of both American English and British Received Pronunciation. Spoken mostly in the early 20th century by Americans, it is not a vernacular American accent native to any location, but rather, according to voice and drama professor Dudley Knight, an affected set of speech patterns whose "chief quality was that no Americans actually spoke it unless educated to do so".[4] The accent is, therefore, best associated with the American upper class, theater, and film industry of the 1930s and 1940s,[5] largely taught in private independent preparatory schools especially in the American Northeast and in acting schools.[6] The accent's overall use sharply declined following the Second World War.

On the UK side of the Atlantic, the Received Pronunciation was considered the appropriate form of English in BBC broadcasts, leading to "BBC English", which again reflected upper class use. As I recall, it wasn't until the 1980s when BBC announcers were more free to use regional dialects.

So when you view history through TV, remember that you are also seeing it through a upper-class lens.

[ghaff]

That's true although professional dress is definitely more casual in the US (for the most part) than it was 20-30 years ago. When I started with a tech company in the mid-80s, suits were pretty much the norm for marketing and sales and even many in engineering. It would have been strange for the most part to, say, give a presentation at a conference without being dressed that way.

These days, in tech certainly but across many industries, "dressing up" is mostly an outlier.

[wil421]

I can remember my dad in the late 80s early 90s wearing a suit as an EE. Slowly it changed from suit to shirt and tie to no tie. Now it’s polo and jeans.

Many companies are trying to emulate west coast tech companies. Especially Silicon Valley. I’ve seen a lot of initiatives geared toward “millennials” in a couple big companies I worked at. Including getting rid of the khaki business casual.

[swampthing]

I don't know what countries you were referring to, but that's definitely not the case in China (home to a few billions).