[wufufufu]

I wish physical movement was somehow integrated with software engineering more. Weak solutions like standing desks don't make it the cardio equivalent of something like a cleaning job.

It's sad that we sacrifice health for more money only to spend it on health-related issues we accumulate from our career choice.

I always thought that maybe having to carry a medicine ball up a hill in order to deploy a service would be fun.

[brandonmenc]

I love to exercise - but I really like being able to keep that separate from other aspects of my life.

I've worked manual labor jobs. They suck, and they damage your body. If you think sitting all day long is bad for your health, imagine what even just pushing a broom thousands of times a day is doing to say, your rotator cuff.

Pack a healthy lunch, keep your hours reasonable, get up from your desk and walk around every couple hours, exercise in your free time, and your office job won't kill you.

As to which type of job is more "fun" - a construction foreman once told me that he always sees these guys who try working construction to get away from their office job, who try to find meaning/enlightenment through manual labor - a sentiment you hear here a lot - and they always go back to their office job. Always.

But the guys who manage to escape the jobsite for the office - they never, ever come back.

[csallen]

I'm a software engineer, but I worked a construction job once while I was young. I barely lasted a week.

The job was to help with building a hotel during a sweltering hot summer in Georgia. I'd be soaked in sweat before noon. We spent all day carrying heavy pieces of drywall up and down rickety staircases that somehow never collapsed, injuring our fingers, stepping on rusty nails, walking through rooms full of brightly colored dust and gas with no masks on, etc. I felt like I'd cut into my lifespan after just a few days. My whole body hurt by the time I got home, and I was so exhausted I couldn't do anything else.

Construction work can be simple, sure. But it's not easy.

[your-nanny]

I get irritated by people who complain when they see construction workers (or similar) standing around. They underestimate just how hard their work is on their bodies

[perl4ever]

I am trying to exercise regularly in a gym, and I am finding that joint discomfort/pain is the limiting factor. When you're in your 20s or even your 30s, you don't generally think about that.

But enough IT types talk about RSI problems, wrists and such, that it ought to be on the radar screen if you are considering a physical job.

An uncle of mine had a physical job in a hospital most of his life and suffered from spinal stenosis, which I believe caused incredible pain in his retirement.

My mother was a computer programmer, but the whole reason she got a college degree was because she studied like mad in high school, because she was driven by escaping manual labor on the family farm. None of her siblings became farmers.

[RaceWon]

I had an orthopedic surgeon from the HSS (He taught Anatomy and Orthopedic Surgery at NYU) once, who told me to Always use your body even when if it hurts to do so because of an injury.

3 years ago I had a severe allergic reaction to an antibiotic, which affected the nerves in my dominant arm. This was painful to the point of waking me up from sleep and my arm was almost useless in certain ranges of motion. Prior to this I had neglected working out for about 5 years, but started again; it took about a year but my arm is back to normal now and I can do more consecutive pushups than my age... and I'm 58.

Ignore the pain and workout.

[justinator]

I'm generally for the idea of staying active, to promote healing with prescribed movement and 30 hours/week of physicsl activity isn't unheard of in my life -

but I'm not sure "always" is the right answer ... always.

I do agree that a lack of physical exercise can cause its own type of pain that counterintuitively can be relieved with movement, or the best thing after a long run is a brisk jog the next day, but if I severly sprain an ankle, maybe it's best to just rest that ankle for a while.

[specialist]

I know you're right. I have chronic pain (from GVHD). I almost always do better after exercise, activity. But getting started is very hard.

What helps me is having someone, anyone around, to distract me from myself.

[reitanqild]

> As to which type of job is more "fun" - a construction foreman once told me that he always sees these guys who try working construction to get away from their office job, who try to find meaning/enlightenment through manual labor - a sentiment you hear here a lot - and they always go back to their office job. Always.

Believe you. I've been wet an got electrical shocks from wet equipment more than once on a particular site.

But part of it is probably also that office jobs typically pays better and people find it hard to return to a lower salary.

What I liked best was when I had my own office but lots of trips to install, maintain, upgrade and verify the systems I programmed ;-)

[gadders]

I worked as a building site labourer and removal man in my summer holidays as a student. I think it's OK when you're younger, but I wouldn't want to be doing it at 50+.

When I was a removal man, one guy had to come back to work earlier than recommended after open heart surgery as they only got the UK statutory sick pay which was fuck all. We were taking a sofa out of a building over a first floor balcony when the sofa slipped and banged him right in the sternum. I can still remember the scream of pain he made :-(

[j9461701]

And yet construction workers were the happiest group surveyed:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/construction-workers-topped-r...

Personally, I really couldn't agree more with what you're saying. The prospect of doing manual labor for a living just sounds awful. Getting dirty and smelly, blowing out my knees and ruining my back, having my brain stuck in idle for 8 hours all day every day, massively increasing my probability of suffering a crippling or fatal work-related accident. And an office job has the possibility of leading to a work-from-home situation, which would allow you to get whatever level of exercise of whatever type you want every single day of the week.

[visarga]

> having my brain stuck in idle for 8 hours all day every day

You'd be surprised how many times manual labor requires solution finding. Even figuring out a leaking pipe or a problem in the electricity panel requires ingenuity. Designing and making custom furniture can be complex. A competent construction worker / repairman can be like a dev and payed like one (& sometimes harder to find). Take a look at those DIY videos to see what I mean. Not to mention the tooling these guys have in their shops ...

[wufufufu]

Yea, the opinion that you can only use your brain in an office job is wrong, but that opinion is somehow is imprinted on everyone.

I know people who work(ed) construction who are actually very smart and they constantly belittle their own intelligence because they don't have a college degree or have a job that works with computers. Vice versa I know people who attend graduate school at tech institutes who are actually stupid in many ways but are so full of themselves because they've managed to memorize enough to pass engineering classes.

[TheCoelacanth]

Construction industry, not necessarily the people actually doing the construction. That is easily explained by the relatively good economic performance of the construction industry at the time the survey was conducted.

[watwut]

Injured and sick get out of manual labor, oftentimes in pain. Developers whose back hurts or joints are bad continue working slightly less happy. Worker whose back or joints hurt gotta find new job.

[fjsolwmv]

And guess what group was #2: Software developers. Now look at long-term health and economic prospects of the two careers, beyod short term satisfaction with survivorship bias. Former developers are better off than former construction workers.

[j9461701]

Actually #2 was consumer products and services. Technology in general and software ranked 3rd.

>Now look at long-term health and economic prospects of the two careers, beyod short term satisfaction with survivorship bias.

Economics seems to be the real reason the original poster saw people switch away from manual labor after trying it for a while. Construction workers may be happier and more fulfilled day to day, but software engineers are paid more and it's hard to say no to a larger, more consistent paycheck.

[lookACamel]

Did he account for differences in salary?

[OldSchoolJohnny]

Nothing in the world stopping you from dropping and doing pushups and squats every half hour or so during work. Nothing.

[lemonberry]

A very underrated solution. In my experience, I was a personal trainer for a year or so, people percieve exercise as a workout and in a very binary form. They can either get their whole workout in, or nothing. By reframing it as physical activity and accumulating that activity over the course of the day you can stay relatively fit.

[dashundchen]

In my experience, the best way to integrate fitness in everyday life is to live in the city.

I live in the inner part of a mid sized Great Lakes city. Commute and lunch are short walks, groceries and shopping is a bike ride, friends and social groups are with in biking distance and the city's cultural and social activity is centered in walkable neighborhoods. Bike culture offers rides across any social group you can think of. Off road bike paths connect the country in the warmer months.

Even on a regular work day I'll walk or ride in the evening to wind down. In a city there are many routes and parks to wander through, the landscape and texture constantly changing thought the year. The routine keeps you going even through the snowy winter months. You can walk or ride as fast or slow as you want to adjust the "workout".

In contrast a lot of my exurban coworkers spend an hour plus per day commuting to work in the car, and live in isolated developments that are unwalkable past the arterial they are on. Exercise becomes a drive to a gym or park for and is easy to forgo in a busy day.

I recognize not every city is affordable enough to live and work in a short distance, but I'd trade any amount of yard space for an accessible city.

[burfog]

Don't forget mowing the lawn, clearing snow, raking leaves, and hoeing weeds. Even without manual tools, you get a workout.

[reitanqild]

I have one taekwondo guy at the office who uses his standing desk to do some real stretching. He can stand programming for quite a while with one foot on the table :-)

[DoreenMichele]

Eons ago, when I had a rotary phone and pet dinosaur, I brushed teeth like that.

It didn't involve stretching. It was just the most comfortable position for brushing teeth for a tall (and very limber) person where the sink was too short. I tried to avoid it and found I was very uncomfortable trying to stand "normally" to brush teeth.

So he may not be stretching at all. He might just be making himself comfy.

[reitanqild]

He has openly admitted that he did it because of taekwondo when I asked:-)

Also, if anyone find the stretches he does comfy I don't know what.

[Moodles]

Why can't people just make an hour before or after work to go to the gym or go for a run?

[lemonberry]

I think that varies from person to person. Some people seem to be able to decide they're going to get into a routine and they just do it. Others seem to really struggle. Plus, starting a routine seems to be much more difficult than breaking it.

But the all-or-nothing attitude I mentioned above is problematic if someone has in mind that they're going to work out for an hour in the morning. For one reason or another they suddenly only have 45, 30 or 15 minutes for a workout and they write it off because they don't have time for their "workout" rather than using the time they do have.

But even if one only has 5 minutes you can make something with that time, whether it's a set of pushups, squats, mobility work or a quick jog. Then later in the day if one finds another window do something then.

IMO the best approach is try to move 5 minutes a day, everyday, regardless of the form it takes. Build the habit that you do something every day. Then build from there. Modulate intensity and movements. If you can do more do it, if you can't, don't stress over it.

[aesclepius]

You have to factor into time spent preparing, and transit. I'll give you an example. I like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and there are 1.5 hour classes in the afternoon/evening. However, it's a 20 minute commute either way, and I usually get 5 minutes early an leave 10 minute after it's finished for stretching and cool-down/shower. So my 1.5 hour class turns into a 2.5-3 hour block every time I'd like to go to a class. Similarly an hour run before/after doesn't include transit, shower, etc., making it more of a 2 hour commitment.

[Moodles]

Okay, then you can exercise without Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[mikestew]

Because of all the other things they have to “make an hour” for. Pick up kids, make supper, meh, I don’t to make a whole list, use your imagination. Personally, yes, that hour with a musical instrument in my hands is sacred, and dogs need walked for an hour whether I want to or not. But I’m not most people.

Besides, they owe neither you or me an explanation. Our hypothetical people said that’s not a workable option, what else ya got?

[Moodles]

I thought my comment might be a bit divisive :-)

I bet almost everyone can find at least half an hour for their health if they wanted to. Very few people actually have a "I don't have time!" excuse. These people better be spending every single minute of their existence at work, doing something essential with their family, or sleeping then. Even then, could they seriously not function with half an hour less sleep? Can they not do something physical with their kids like sport or even just a walk? Maybe you and some others actually don't have time, but most do. Even Obama found time for hourly golf and reading pretty much every day. I really dislike the victimhood/making excuses mentality. I don't think it's a good thing for most people. But yes, I understand that for a very small portion of people, they really don't have time.

Also, walking your dogs could be a form of exercise.

[watwut]

Try rigorous an hour long focused exrcise while caring about toddler whole day. Super frustrating. Or kid that you need to supervise after work and then not leave alone while the kid sleeps.

Exercise can be done - but only if you adopt the "5 minutes are actually fine if there is interruptiom" mindset parent recommends. And only if you did not exercised for long, because otherwise those small chunks are frustrating and make you hate them (as you are painfully aware of difference between old one and this one).

[Reedx]

They usually can - if they have time for Netflix/etc - it's just not a high enough priority.

You don't even need an hour. 30 minutes does wonders. It doesn't need to include a trip to the gym either. Pushups, situps, squats and such go a long way.

[gadders]

I go at lunchtime. Stick a 90 minute meeting in your own calendar 3-4 times a week. Works for me 90% of the time.

[martin-adams]

Working hours and family commitments to name one.

[fjsolwmv]

You can exercise with family

[wazoox]

Well, some people do, for instance me :)

[ambivalents]

This is where workplace culture can make a big difference. Doing what you suggest is a lot easier in my current workplace which is full of fit, healthy people at an employer who values our health. Doing this at my last workplace would've gotten me some looks and I'd have been pegged the weird one. Not to say this is a good enough reason not to do it, but these social forces are powerful for encouraging or discouraging this kind of behavior.

[riku_iki]

It would look very odd in office environment, also sweating problem..

[always_good]

The first is just a self-limiting belief. The same way you'll never talk to women if you're scared of looking stupid. But you don't look stupid -- you look like someone trying to get what they want. People respect that.

The second is mitigated by the fact that you're just doing smaller sets. We're not talking about a full work out. If you're sweating after 10, 20, 30 pushups or 30, 50, 75 squats, you were probably sweating anyways. Get a fan.

Soon you run out of excuses and you're back to "if you had the discipline, you would do it." Just like eating healthy.

[joering2]

Get a fan? You don't exercise much do you? What you need is well maintain temperature in the room you exercise; pushing air at yourself while you are sweating doing workout will only give you cold and send you to bed with fever.

Please get personal trainer's help before you exercise again.

[SmellyGeekBoy]

What on Earth? Most gyms have fans, some are even air conditioned. Perhaps they all should have consulted a personal trainer before endangering the health of their clients?

[krzat]

How do you run/bike without air moving around you?

[switchbak]

If enough people do it, maybe this could help change the perception?

Or maybe we'll just look like the 'bros in Silicon Valley. Ok, point taken :)

[fjsolwmv]

What's wrong with looking like "bros", who are strong and healthy?

[wufufufu]

Fair, although I posit that that is not the same as having physical movement integrated into your job at a fundamental level.

Doing a few exercises every 30 minutes is far better than doing nothing and you could argue that doing any more than that has decreasing marginal returns in terms of your fitness indicators. But it's still not the same as having a physical purpose that you can hone and push yourself in.

[eckza]

> I always thought that maybe having to carry a medicine ball up a hill in order to deploy a service would be fun.

Fittingly Sisyphean.

[wufufufu]

Ha. And maybe the mass of the medicine ball is proportional to the size of the changes.

[usrusr]

I've come to similar ideas from the opposite side (being a crazy sports enthusiast my body needs rest more often than not during office hours, so physical activity would be more a side effect than the goal):

When waiting for the computer forces us to idle, most of us try to fill the void with attempted multitasking. Be it half-assing something productive or trying to grab some instant gratification from our favorite distractions, it doesn't matter, it throws us or our the flow. This is why faster compilers raise productivity by much more than the directly saved man-minutes.

Now what if we could actively speed up the build? (or whatever else we are waiting for?)

Imagine a system that throttled down a bit during "unattended" builds (developer staring at hacker news would count as "unattended"), and only opened up fully when the user does "the compile thing", similar to your idea of carrying a medicine ball for deployments. It could be something hardly physical as repeatedly (impatiently!) tapping a button, but it would feel much better with a more physical activity.

What I envision is a big, satisfying crank. The Compiler Crank. With a subtle sound (or haptic) effect that stops when the build is done, bonus points for force feedback via modulating the resistance according to occupied cores.

It's not intended as a fitness device, just something to keep you occupied with something that does not cause the dreaded context switch, and does not promise occasional gratification (never ever try filling those gaps with Solitaire!).

Whatever productivity it would waste during hn-induced "unattended" builds, I think it could make up tenfold by maintaining high engagement whenever engagement is sufficiently high to actually use the device.

[wufufufu]

This is awesome lol. We have a cloud CI system that builds deployables. Maybe the build priority on your branches is proportional to the RPM of your crank.

[rojobuffalo]

Agreed; the physicality of writing software is one of the worst aspects of the whole practice. I try to combat this by setting up a problem which I don't yet have a solution for, and then going for a walk to think it over. I think walking for one-on-one meetings is also a useful thing to do. I've wanted for a while now to set up a pull-up bar in my office. I had one before and it was another good way to take a quick break and get the heart rate up. Has anyone been in an office that had some sort of exercise setup combined with white boards? I often find myself going straight to a white board or notepad after an exercise break.

[Uberphallus]

I dream about a rule that says that, when someone organises a meeting they have to do 10 well-form pushups per attendant. Bullshit meetings gone + exercise up = Win-win.

[Smaug123]

My cunning idea for stand-ups is to make every participant plank continuously while they're speaking, for a similar reason.

[fjsolwmv]

For many software devs,standing up is the equivalent of normal people planking.

[wufufufu]

Imagine a world where the management chain is characterized by increasing levels of upper body fitness. Sexist, but hilarious.

[lostlogin]

Bike meetings solve this problem too.

[wufufufu]

A hangboard is also great for an office if you're into climbing.

[DamnInteresting]

My attempt at a solution was to acquire a treadmill desk. It's certainly better than sitting all day, but I'm still nowhere near as fit as I was when I carried heavy ladders around a multi-story department store all day.

[tokyodude]

Do people with cleaning jobs live longer and/or are they happier? It's certainly not the stereotype in my head but I have zero data. Do any jobs with lots of manual labor live longer, healthier, and happier?

[hungerstrike]

Recently it was found that prolonged use of cleaning products is as bad as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.

Ahh, well - you gotta put something on the old tombstone someday right?

[wufufufu]

I don't believe that. You can clean safely. How do you smoke a pack a day, safely?

[gshakir]

It depends if they are happy with their jobs. If they are going to be tired and miserable at the end of the day, the motivation aspect is not there.

[cup-of-tea]

No they don't. Burning more calories will actually make you die sooner.

[drdrey]

What the hell are you talking about? When was the last time you heard your doctor recommend to burn as little calories as you can, and avoid 30 min of exercise a day at all costs?

[kaybe]

Maybe the best would be to work 3 hours in the morning, go surfing or skiing or whatever, and then work 3 more hours. The productivity would at least be the same and happiness would be higher.

[aoner]

I can't find the specific paper(s) right now but a simple tip I also follow is to stand and then sit again (or walk a bit) every 30 minutes. This greatly decreases your risk to cardiovascular diseases. It works since you thoroughly pump your blood through your body once in a while.

[Alex3917]

> I wish physical movement was somehow integrated with software engineering more.

Just drink a lot of coffee so that you're forced to get up and go to the bathroom every 20 - 30 minutes. (Or mint tea, if you want the same effect without the caffeine.) As a bonus it will also prevent Parkinson's.

[stephen_g]

Haha, I sort of end up doing this with tea. I just love tea, have five or six cups a day, keeps me very well hydrated.

It would probably be pretty bad for me if I had milk or sugar, but luckily I like just plain black tea.

[chiefalchemist]

I try to take a couple breaks, and then use the stairs (instead of the elevator). I try to use the toilet one floor up or down as well.

[komaromy]

I recently acquired a DeskCycle and so far it seems like a great solution to this problem. It's much cheaper and less bulky than a treadmill desk and fit under my existing desk with minimal reconfiguration.

The only problem is that I now have to wear shorts to work or I get excessively sweaty during the day, so it may not be feasible in less permissive work cultures.

[Uberphallus]

Yeah, sometimes I'm envious of construction workers, with sculpted bodies (as long as they don't indulge in food and alcohol), enjoying the sun or the cold (I like cold, weird I know), and having easier sleep without things from work cluttering your head.

But as I said, it's only sometimes.

[zzzeek]

I googled because I thought this might exist, but it doesn't quite, a computer keyboard that exists as a giant floor mat. Type every fifth email on that thing and that would be quite a workout.

[gadders]

Like Tom Hanks playing the Piano in Big? :-)

[zzzeek]

Yup

[spyder]

Scrolling in editors with a treadmill :D