[mpweiher]

> I now need to go to a bank, and then to a shop

Hmmm...if you go to a bank to withdraw cash every tine you go to a shop I could see your point, but I would suggest that "you're holding it wrong".

> I have to carry a lot of little bits of valuable paper around with me

Which are limited in terms of risk, whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit. Carrying the bits of paper (and coins) has the big benefit of being tangible, that is we get to use all our senses to understand something otherwise very abstract.

> when I pay I have to wait [..]

Err...sorry, cash transactions are invariably much quicker than card transactions around here.

> I get no protections such as insurance

You mean you don't have ridiculous services bundled together for no reason whatsoever.

> I can't how understand how anyone can argue cash is more convenient!

And I can't understand how anyone can argue that cards are more convenient, when they clearly are not.

>And how can you possibly argue cash is faster? Paying by card takes 0.5 seconds -

Where? Around here, card transactions always take longer.

> arcane things like inserting your card, paper printouts, signing with a pen [..] decade or more.

Actually, having to sign on EC payments has become a thing recently, it used to be exclusively PIN. And sometimes it's PIN, sometimes it's signature, in the same shop, with the same card. They payment processor seems to choose by some randomized algorithm.

[ianhowson]

> whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit

Cards also have a dispute process.

> much quicker than card transactions around here

That's because German vendors are hopeless at processing cards.

Australia/HK/Singapore/China/most of Europe: the reader prompts you with the sale amount. You tap your card. It adds zero time to the transaction.

Germany: the vendor asks to hold the card. They insert the card. They ask the terminal to do a credit transaction. They give the reader back to you for the PIN. You hand it back. They ask for your ID because you're a foreigner. Blah blah blah.

> having to sign on EC payments has become a thing recently

So you're actively going backwards, then?

I'm also going to point out three other annoyances with the German banking system:

- Cash machines are rare (kilometres apart)

- To avoid fees, you have to use machines in your network

- The fees on out-of-network withdrawals are huge (3-5 EUR, but apparently unrestricted; I paid 10 EUR for a temporary ATM at an event once).

So you carry a lot of cash.

[whatyoucantsay]

> That's because German vendors are hopeless at processing cards.

>Australia/HK/Singapore/China/most of Europe: the reader prompts you with the sale amount. You tap your card. It adds zero time to the transaction.

Outside of department stores and similar, using a card is very inconvenient in China. Depending on the place, you need cash or Alipay/WeChat.

[ianhowson]

My bad. My last visit predated Alipay.

[ShadowFaxSam]

>That's because German vendors are hopeless at processing cards.

I could not agree more with the process you described every time I pay with a card in Germany. Germans point to this inefficient process for the reason cash is faster.

However, when I lived in the US, Australia, and NZ you literally tap your card with paywave and the transaction is complete. It is impossible for a cash transaction to be faster than this.

[mpweiher]

> So you carry a lot of cash.

Define "a lot". But yes, I usually have a week or two supply. Why on earth would I not?

> You tap your card.

As asked elsewhere: how is this secure?

[chrisseaton]

> As asked elsewhere: how is this secure?

It's more secure than your two weeks' worth of untraceable cash that you're lumping around everywhere.

If you lose your card you cancel it. I can do this on my phone in 30s flat when I notice it's gone. Things bought in the mean time are covered by the card provider, and they prosecute the criminal to get the money back.

If you lose your two weeks' supply of cash what do you do?

[mpweiher]

> more secure than your two weeks' supply of cash

Nope. If my cash is gone, that's all that's gone. With a card, you can do a lot more damage.

Cash also doesn't get denied for random/unpredictable reasons when you are abroad.

> 30s flat when I notice it's gone.

Coordinated gangs will clear out your bank accounts faster than that.

If I lose my cash, that's it. I don't have to cancel anything, I don't have to reapply for anything. I can borrow cash, or loan out some cash. Easy peasy.

Contactless is a solution looking for a problem.

[chrisseaton]

> Coordinated gangs will clear out your bank accounts faster than that.

But a credit card doesn’t give access to a bank account - it’s a credit line.

If someone except me uses that credit line then the purchase is taken off my credit line in minutes.

[mpweiher]

Oh you were talking about credit cards?

Well, that's another whole can of worms.

Virtually no retailer in Germany accepts credit cards because the fees are too high and price competition in Germany is pretty brutal (just for reference: Walmart, which steamrollered US retail had to retreat from the German market, in part because they simply couldn't compete).

So you are paying for these services, and yes, cost of living is higher in the UK, for example:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

Oh, and the terms imposed on retailers by credit card companies are pretty brutal, too. For example, they push most of the risk of fraud onto the retailer. If you think that doesn't matter: KAGI went out of business due to fraud.

https://tidbits.com/2016/08/04/kagi-shuts-down-after-falling...

So what's happening when the purchase is "taken off" your credit line is that the retailer gets hit, doubly, meaning they have to raise prices on everyone to stay in business (see higher cost of living above) or they go out of business (see KAGI example). German retailers don't want this and German consumers don't want this either.

And of course the credit card companies have managed to create a tax on the entire economy, essentially a rent-seeking/parasitic business model, while pushing all the cost and risk onto others (the general public and the retailers). Now if I were a credit card company, I'd be all "Yay!". As a consumer or a provider of products and services...not so much.

And again, the convenience, while shiny and cool, is at best trivial, and I would say offset by other conveniences such as haptic processing, fungibility, loanability ("Quick, can you loan me €50?", "Er, here's my card?").

And there is significant added complexity in the system, which can fail fairly dramatically. For example, when I was in living in the UK my UK card would not work just about every time I went abroad. "Fraud protection". Hah. I've had that happen a lot more than I ever had cash lost or stolen, and the consequences are more severe. The bank suggested I should contact them every time I went abroad. Excuse me? I need to ask my bank for permission to travel?

That's one thing that's also a very important lesson for software, particularly performance: in almost all cases, resilience is more important than (peak) performance. You really want to strive to avoid bad outcomes, not make the already good outcomes a few percent better. This is harder, but more worthwhile.

And of course the point of credit cards is to get you to spend money you don't have, which is also why eliminating that haptic feedback of money leaving your wallet was and is so important. And surprise, surprise, credit card debt is (shockingly) high at least in the US and the UK.

So don't get me started on credit cards :-)

[hycaria]

I used to take 200 euros every few weeks at the ATM when I lived in Germany, and had to carry around min. 30 euros to be sure I could run errands on my way home or whatever. Honestly I didn't feel comfortable taking all these bank notes from the atm in the middle of other people, and carrying so much cash all the time. Had I been robbed, or had I lost it, it was simply gone. A card fraud you can contest (and hopefully be covered if your bank and card insurance is good enough)

Now that I've left ? Rarely have more than 10 euros in my pocket, can take 20 euros at ATM and not give a shit about fees. I can pay with my card everywhere.

[mpweiher]

> A card fraud you can contest

In Germany, that's very difficult, the courts generally assume that the chip+PIN system is safe.

And of course, you don't actually think that you are not paying for card fraud, do you? You just pay for it in the fees the card companies charge.

[chrisseaton]

But if the fees are the same for people who pay with cash and people who pay with card, which they are, then you’re better off using a card.

[mpweiher]

Well, that's the prisoner's dilemma "defect" strategy. Works great one time round. Not so well in repeat games, as of course it means everyone pays more all the time.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

[freeflight]

All three of your last points are a non-issue if you have the right bank. DKB allows you to use your Visa to withdraw from any ATM, worldwide, without any fees. I'm sure there are other German banks with similar offers.

No more wondering if an ATM is part of your network and end up with outrageous fees. I see an ATM, any ATM, I can use it to withdraw cash, simple as that.

[kungtotte]

If you go for cash as part of protecting privacy etc. it seems contrary to suggest that you have to pick a specific bank in order to ensure convenience of paying with cash.

Surely retaining your privacy includes being able to choose freely who you do business with?

[freeflight]

I'm merely saying that these ATM issues don't have to apply and I'm pretty sure there are other banks offering similar conditions on ATM withdrawals.

[chrisseaton]

But going to N shops is more convenient than going to N shops + 1 bank isn't it? I mean it is literally strictly less places to visit.

> whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit

That's not my liability - it's the card company's. As long as I'm not negligent, like giving someone my PIN, I am not liable for someone stealing my card and using it. I don't lose anything.

I'm strictly liable for less value with card than cash.

> Where? Around here, card transactions always take longer.

How does it manage to take longer? Don't you have contactless in Germany? If you don't, then that's the problem - not the cards themselves.

The last point seems debatable given Germany's backward card infrastructure, but for liability and number of places I have to visit, it just seems a mathematical fact that cards are more convenient.

[mpweiher]

> N shops + 1 bank

Only by 1/N. And since there are ATMs near my shops and it's mostly about trips, not about # of shops, it's both negligible and certainly well worth it for the benefits. And if that epsilon of effort is too much for you, you can get cash-back at most grocery shops, though the amount will typically be smaller, one reason I prefer the bank ATM.

> That's not my liability - it's the card company's

Not around here it ain't. And of course if the card company "takes on" the liability, it just redistributes it to its customers. So you are paying for it.

> Don't you have contactless in Germany?

Rarely if at all. Also I don't see how contactless (you just swipe? No PIN?) manages security.

So: tangibility, security and data protection are clear benefits. Convenience as well around here, and can only be improved by making the entire thing less secure.

[chrisseaton]

It sounds like Germany has a self-imposed chicken and egg problem - you don't think cards are better, so you don't implement modern cards, but card aren't better because you haven't implemented modern cards.

We had a card-provider sponsored big-bang on contactless payments years ago in the UK and it's been an epiphany. Life is so much better cashless.

[mpweiher]

> you don't think cards are better

No, for us, the value proposition is just not there. The benefits are at best highly marginal and the disadvantages profound, if less visible.

> card-provider sponsored big-bang

Hmmm...and they did this out of the goodness of their hearts?

Cards were introduced in order to get you to spend more, in particular money you don't have, which is why it started with credit cards.

Making a payment by card is essentially the same, whether it's € 1 or € 100, or even € 1000. With cash, there's a bit of a pause as you count out the bills. And you notice it much more when prices go up. etc.

And of course the whole brouhaha about anonymous digital currencies. Huh? More technology to fix problems with technology? How about we use this really old technology that already has all these benefits.

[chrisseaton]

> No, for us, the value proposition is just not there

You don’t see the value because you don’t know what’s possible. For example you asked if you ‘swipe’ a ‘contactless’ card so you must not know what other countries’ cards can do. (You don’t swipe it - that’s the whole point - it’s without contact - contactless.)

> Hmmm...and they did this out of the goodness of their hearts?

No they benefitted but so did we - not everything is a zero sum game and sometimes everyone can work together for society make progress but someone needs to nudge.

[pgeorgi]

> You don’t swipe it

You still have to hit the NFC coil by a few millimeters, it's a pretty comparable motion and effort.

And it takes longer than it takes an Aldi cashier to give out change.

[newman8r]

> Carrying the bits of paper (and coins) has the big benefit of being tangible, that is we get to use all our senses to understand something otherwise very abstract.

This is a much bigger deal than a lot of people will admit. It's a lot easier to waste your money without a second thought when you're using a card. It's similar to chips in vegas - you're much quicker to gamble the chips than you would have been with cash.

It's not as big of a deal if you're really responsible financially, but if you're the kind of person who binge-shops amazon then going cash-only for a few months might be an eye-opening experience.

[spinningarrow]

Where is "here"? I agree with your parent, in places that support Apple Pay/Android Pay/PayWave/contactless payments (e.g. Singapore, the UK, and surely more that I don't know), cashless is easily more convenient.

In places that don't have contactless payments, cashless may be less convenient but contactless is probably on its way there so your argument seems like a bit of a straw man. At any rate, I'm sure it can be agreed that contactless cashless payments are more convenient that cash ones.

[bchallenor]

I am visiting Berlin at the moment, and I miss the convenience and speed of being able to pay with contactless, by card or phone.

Regarding the speed of transactions: cash might be faster than signature or even Chip+PIN, but is surely not faster than contactless.

For example, anyone with a contactless Visa/Mastercard or phone can enter the London Underground by simply tapping at the barrier. They do not need to have a pre-existing relationship with Transport for London, to buy a ticket in advance, or to preload a stored-value card (as you generally must do in other city transport networks). And the ticket barriers open on average in 480ms. [1] That's pretty fast. You can't even pay by cash on a bus in London any more.

[1] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/payment_methods_time_...

[mpweiher]

> anyone with a contactless Visa/Mastercard or phone can enter the London Underground by simply tapping at the barrier

In Berlin, there is no barrier.

[bchallenor]

My example was to give quantitative evidence for the speed of contactless transactions.

It is true that there is no barrier in Berlin, but you still need to buy a ticket. For casual users such as myself, who don't have a season ticket, this takes significantly longer than 480ms: find ticket machine, queue, navigate menu, insert cash, wait for change and ticket to be printed, find ticket validation machine.

It is quite possible to miss the train here by having to queue to buy a ticket, particularly in busy places like the airport. This could be avoided if the tourists were able to use their existing cards/phones to tap in.