[ianhowson]

> whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit

Cards also have a dispute process.

> much quicker than card transactions around here

That's because German vendors are hopeless at processing cards.

Australia/HK/Singapore/China/most of Europe: the reader prompts you with the sale amount. You tap your card. It adds zero time to the transaction.

Germany: the vendor asks to hold the card. They insert the card. They ask the terminal to do a credit transaction. They give the reader back to you for the PIN. You hand it back. They ask for your ID because you're a foreigner. Blah blah blah.

> having to sign on EC payments has become a thing recently

So you're actively going backwards, then?

I'm also going to point out three other annoyances with the German banking system:

- Cash machines are rare (kilometres apart)

- To avoid fees, you have to use machines in your network

- The fees on out-of-network withdrawals are huge (3-5 EUR, but apparently unrestricted; I paid 10 EUR for a temporary ATM at an event once).

So you carry a lot of cash.

[whatyoucantsay]

> That's because German vendors are hopeless at processing cards.

>Australia/HK/Singapore/China/most of Europe: the reader prompts you with the sale amount. You tap your card. It adds zero time to the transaction.

Outside of department stores and similar, using a card is very inconvenient in China. Depending on the place, you need cash or Alipay/WeChat.

[ianhowson]

My bad. My last visit predated Alipay.

[ShadowFaxSam]

>That's because German vendors are hopeless at processing cards.

I could not agree more with the process you described every time I pay with a card in Germany. Germans point to this inefficient process for the reason cash is faster.

However, when I lived in the US, Australia, and NZ you literally tap your card with paywave and the transaction is complete. It is impossible for a cash transaction to be faster than this.

[mpweiher]

> So you carry a lot of cash.

Define "a lot". But yes, I usually have a week or two supply. Why on earth would I not?

> You tap your card.

As asked elsewhere: how is this secure?

[chrisseaton]

> As asked elsewhere: how is this secure?

It's more secure than your two weeks' worth of untraceable cash that you're lumping around everywhere.

If you lose your card you cancel it. I can do this on my phone in 30s flat when I notice it's gone. Things bought in the mean time are covered by the card provider, and they prosecute the criminal to get the money back.

If you lose your two weeks' supply of cash what do you do?

[mpweiher]

> more secure than your two weeks' supply of cash

Nope. If my cash is gone, that's all that's gone. With a card, you can do a lot more damage.

Cash also doesn't get denied for random/unpredictable reasons when you are abroad.

> 30s flat when I notice it's gone.

Coordinated gangs will clear out your bank accounts faster than that.

If I lose my cash, that's it. I don't have to cancel anything, I don't have to reapply for anything. I can borrow cash, or loan out some cash. Easy peasy.

Contactless is a solution looking for a problem.

[chrisseaton]

> Coordinated gangs will clear out your bank accounts faster than that.

But a credit card doesn’t give access to a bank account - it’s a credit line.

If someone except me uses that credit line then the purchase is taken off my credit line in minutes.

[mpweiher]

Oh you were talking about credit cards?

Well, that's another whole can of worms.

Virtually no retailer in Germany accepts credit cards because the fees are too high and price competition in Germany is pretty brutal (just for reference: Walmart, which steamrollered US retail had to retreat from the German market, in part because they simply couldn't compete).

So you are paying for these services, and yes, cost of living is higher in the UK, for example:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

Oh, and the terms imposed on retailers by credit card companies are pretty brutal, too. For example, they push most of the risk of fraud onto the retailer. If you think that doesn't matter: KAGI went out of business due to fraud.

https://tidbits.com/2016/08/04/kagi-shuts-down-after-falling...

So what's happening when the purchase is "taken off" your credit line is that the retailer gets hit, doubly, meaning they have to raise prices on everyone to stay in business (see higher cost of living above) or they go out of business (see KAGI example). German retailers don't want this and German consumers don't want this either.

And of course the credit card companies have managed to create a tax on the entire economy, essentially a rent-seeking/parasitic business model, while pushing all the cost and risk onto others (the general public and the retailers). Now if I were a credit card company, I'd be all "Yay!". As a consumer or a provider of products and services...not so much.

And again, the convenience, while shiny and cool, is at best trivial, and I would say offset by other conveniences such as haptic processing, fungibility, loanability ("Quick, can you loan me €50?", "Er, here's my card?").

And there is significant added complexity in the system, which can fail fairly dramatically. For example, when I was in living in the UK my UK card would not work just about every time I went abroad. "Fraud protection". Hah. I've had that happen a lot more than I ever had cash lost or stolen, and the consequences are more severe. The bank suggested I should contact them every time I went abroad. Excuse me? I need to ask my bank for permission to travel?

That's one thing that's also a very important lesson for software, particularly performance: in almost all cases, resilience is more important than (peak) performance. You really want to strive to avoid bad outcomes, not make the already good outcomes a few percent better. This is harder, but more worthwhile.

And of course the point of credit cards is to get you to spend money you don't have, which is also why eliminating that haptic feedback of money leaving your wallet was and is so important. And surprise, surprise, credit card debt is (shockingly) high at least in the US and the UK.

So don't get me started on credit cards :-)

[germanier]

It should be noted that nowadays that pretty much every German retail chain takes credit cards (MasterCard, Visa at least). Lidl, Aldi, Rewe, Kaufland, many Edekas, Media Markt, Ikea, Rossmann, DM, Obi, etc. all take them.

[hycaria]

I used to take 200 euros every few weeks at the ATM when I lived in Germany, and had to carry around min. 30 euros to be sure I could run errands on my way home or whatever. Honestly I didn't feel comfortable taking all these bank notes from the atm in the middle of other people, and carrying so much cash all the time. Had I been robbed, or had I lost it, it was simply gone. A card fraud you can contest (and hopefully be covered if your bank and card insurance is good enough)

Now that I've left ? Rarely have more than 10 euros in my pocket, can take 20 euros at ATM and not give a shit about fees. I can pay with my card everywhere.

[mpweiher]

> A card fraud you can contest

In Germany, that's very difficult, the courts generally assume that the chip+PIN system is safe.

And of course, you don't actually think that you are not paying for card fraud, do you? You just pay for it in the fees the card companies charge.

[chrisseaton]

But if the fees are the same for people who pay with cash and people who pay with card, which they are, then you’re better off using a card.

[mpweiher]

Well, that's the prisoner's dilemma "defect" strategy. Works great one time round. Not so well in repeat games, as of course it means everyone pays more all the time.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_resu...

[freeflight]

All three of your last points are a non-issue if you have the right bank. DKB allows you to use your Visa to withdraw from any ATM, worldwide, without any fees. I'm sure there are other German banks with similar offers.

No more wondering if an ATM is part of your network and end up with outrageous fees. I see an ATM, any ATM, I can use it to withdraw cash, simple as that.

[kungtotte]

If you go for cash as part of protecting privacy etc. it seems contrary to suggest that you have to pick a specific bank in order to ensure convenience of paying with cash.

Surely retaining your privacy includes being able to choose freely who you do business with?

[freeflight]

I'm merely saying that these ATM issues don't have to apply and I'm pretty sure there are other banks offering similar conditions on ATM withdrawals.