[chrisseaton]

But going to N shops is more convenient than going to N shops + 1 bank isn't it? I mean it is literally strictly less places to visit.

> whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit

That's not my liability - it's the card company's. As long as I'm not negligent, like giving someone my PIN, I am not liable for someone stealing my card and using it. I don't lose anything.

I'm strictly liable for less value with card than cash.

> Where? Around here, card transactions always take longer.

How does it manage to take longer? Don't you have contactless in Germany? If you don't, then that's the problem - not the cards themselves.

The last point seems debatable given Germany's backward card infrastructure, but for liability and number of places I have to visit, it just seems a mathematical fact that cards are more convenient.

[mpweiher]

> N shops + 1 bank

Only by 1/N. And since there are ATMs near my shops and it's mostly about trips, not about # of shops, it's both negligible and certainly well worth it for the benefits. And if that epsilon of effort is too much for you, you can get cash-back at most grocery shops, though the amount will typically be smaller, one reason I prefer the bank ATM.

> That's not my liability - it's the card company's

Not around here it ain't. And of course if the card company "takes on" the liability, it just redistributes it to its customers. So you are paying for it.

> Don't you have contactless in Germany?

Rarely if at all. Also I don't see how contactless (you just swipe? No PIN?) manages security.

So: tangibility, security and data protection are clear benefits. Convenience as well around here, and can only be improved by making the entire thing less secure.

[chrisseaton]

It sounds like Germany has a self-imposed chicken and egg problem - you don't think cards are better, so you don't implement modern cards, but card aren't better because you haven't implemented modern cards.

We had a card-provider sponsored big-bang on contactless payments years ago in the UK and it's been an epiphany. Life is so much better cashless.

[mpweiher]

> you don't think cards are better

No, for us, the value proposition is just not there. The benefits are at best highly marginal and the disadvantages profound, if less visible.

> card-provider sponsored big-bang

Hmmm...and they did this out of the goodness of their hearts?

Cards were introduced in order to get you to spend more, in particular money you don't have, which is why it started with credit cards.

Making a payment by card is essentially the same, whether it's € 1 or € 100, or even € 1000. With cash, there's a bit of a pause as you count out the bills. And you notice it much more when prices go up. etc.

And of course the whole brouhaha about anonymous digital currencies. Huh? More technology to fix problems with technology? How about we use this really old technology that already has all these benefits.

[chrisseaton]

> No, for us, the value proposition is just not there

You don’t see the value because you don’t know what’s possible. For example you asked if you ‘swipe’ a ‘contactless’ card so you must not know what other countries’ cards can do. (You don’t swipe it - that’s the whole point - it’s without contact - contactless.)

> Hmmm...and they did this out of the goodness of their hearts?

No they benefitted but so did we - not everything is a zero sum game and sometimes everyone can work together for society make progress but someone needs to nudge.

[pgeorgi]

> You don’t swipe it

You still have to hit the NFC coil by a few millimeters, it's a pretty comparable motion and effort.

And it takes longer than it takes an Aldi cashier to give out change.

[mpweiher]

Exactly, that's what I meant.