[jlarsen]

I'd like to throw my two cents in here: strength training.

I started having problems with RSI about five years ago, and I tried and failed to get relief from quite a few different things, including the Mindbody Prescription, but what ultimately helped me the most was arm and grip exercises: pull ups, deadlifts, farmer's walks.

If you're going to do _anything_ for 8 hours a day, even sitting, you should be taking measures to make sure it doesn't impact your health.

[protonimitate]

Every time I see someone mention strength training around here I have to jump in and agree - it is the single greatest improvement I've made to my lifestyle thus far.

Lifting weights has the best return on time invested I've experienced, period. You can make progress and eliminate 90% of physical discomfort with 3 hours in the gym a week. All you really need are the main compounds. Throw in a couple cardio sessions if you're feeling ambitious and you will gift yourself years back onto your life and avoid all sorts of aches and pains.

[WhompingWindows]

Make sure you're doing mobility drills, a la Kelly Starrett or the Limber Eleven or any number of mobility/stretching plans. I lifted in the past without doing so and got some seriously annoying back injuries. If you aren't prepared posture/mobility wise, doing lifts can cause more pain than they solve.

[gnur]

Do you have any sort of routine you can recommend?

[roganartu]

Starting Strength and Stronglifts 5x5 are probably the two most popular. These programs are based on what's called beginner gains. You wills start with what will feel like a very light weight, but you increase it every workout until you can't lift it anymore. You'll be amazed at what your body can do after 6 months of this.

When the parent said compound lifts they were referring to lifts that (when you are doing them heavy and correctly) are whole body exercises: Deadlifts, squats, and bench are the three main lifts. Programs will typically mix in some other lifts to round out the program a little like power cleans, overhead press, and bent over rows.

Most beginner strength programs are three days a week, I've found most people do Monday, Wednesday, Friday, but it's flexible as long as you have at least one rest day in between workout days. If you don't mess around and just go to the gym to work you can easily be done in 30-45 mins so under 3 hours a week is very realistic.

You will absolutely feel uncomfortable when you start. Everyone does. Read a lot about form and pay attention to yours (gyms have lots of mirrors, lift near some especially when you're starting out). It's really easy to hurt yourself once the weight increases if you have bad form. Consider getting a good personal trainer to teach you the fundamentals of the lifts.

[mclemme]

Can strongly recommend Starting Strength, started out reading the book (written by Mark Rippetoe) back in January - started the program in February using the android app* as my guide. I feel better than I've done in years (I'm in my mid thirties)

Remember to eat well and make sure you get enough protein, otherwise it's hard to follow the program.

* = https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.shabu.star...

[cblop]

Starting Strength is a great program, but I can't understand how beginners are doing power cleans without any kind of guidance from a trainer. Power cleans are really hard to learn - it took me months of going to Olympic weightlifting classes to get even close to good form on them. How did you manage to learn this from a book?

Also, you need to be doing them on a lifting platform for the end of the lift, when you have to drop the weight all the way to the floor. Not too many gyms (in the UK, at least) seem to have these.

[mclemme]

I did crossfit 2-3 times per week for 1.5 years around 7 years ago at a gym where there was a lot of focus on technique, so it's been a while, but I didn't start from scratch with regards to technique.

That being said, I'm sure I have bugs in some of the exercises, I try to work them out via. videos and focusing on technique before I put more weight on the bar.

All the gyms I've been to here in Denmark have lifting platforms, squat racks, etc. so that hasn't been a problem for me.

[t3h2mas]

The Starting Strength book is fantastic when it comes to showing a lift's mechanics

[t3h2mas]

On form: reddit.com/r/fitness can be a good resource for form checks. You may hear varying opinions on smaller details, but overall they should be geared towards you not getting hurt.

They have a 'how to post a form check' guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/wiki/rules#wiki_2._how_to_p...

[weeksie]

I'll pop in since kettlebells usually don't get a lot of play when talking about strength training on here, at least as far as I've seen.

I'm an old school gym guy—squats, deadlifts, bench, pullups. I got curious about kettlebells a couple months ago after seeing how well they seemed to work on people I know who have used them. Now, after buying 3 kettlebells and a home pull up bar, I'm feeling pretty decent about sticking with these for the foreseeable future.

Lifting with them is far more ergonomic than using a barbell. Sure, you can't load as much weight but the payoff is that you are manipulating the weight through a larger range of motion. Pavel Tsatsouline's book was what I went with for the movements and of course there's endless content on YouTube showing the proper form. If I were really going hard, I'd do KBs four times per week and finish with a heavy barbell lift at the gym, but the laziness has taken over and I'd rather work out in my living room than walk to the gym.

Like anything, take it with a grain of salt but I have long been a skeptic of faddish exercise and these have been working great for me.

[protonimitate]

Pretty much all of the main routines focus around the main compound lifts which are bench press, overhead press, back squats, deadlifts, and bent over rows (or pull ups).

It kind of comes down to how much variation you want in your routine, and if you are focusing on body building or strength (or both).

Personally I started with Strong Lifts 5x5 which is a good intro. Has it's own app, easy to follow, and the guy who developed the program has a great website with video tutorials and written instructions for each lift. Personally I found it to be too much squatting (you do 5 sets of 5 squats every time you go, which adds up quick).

I then moved on to Greyskill LP, which is similar but instead of doing 5x5 for every lift you do 2 sets of 5 and then the last set until (almost) failure. I mixed in a bunch of accessories as well. Overall I felt this was yielding the same results as 5x5 but with less time spent in the gym each time. (once you start hitting the upper end of your strength, 5x5 begins to take between 1.5 - 2 hours each time when you account for warm ups and rest periods).

I have recently switched to 5/3/1 which is more for building mass than strength, and is a bit more complicated to keep track of.

reddit/r/fitness has a ton of good resources. It's easy to get lost in the weeds, but as long as you're hitting your main lifts and doing at least 3 sets of each, adding weight each time, you will make progress. Don't get too bogged down in adding accessories, as they are meant to help improve your weak areas when you get stuck on the main lifts.

[VLM]

"a bit more complicated to keep track of"

Note to new lifters: Most important tool to buy is a spiral notebook and ballpoint pen; plan out all your exercises, sets, and weights before going to the gym, do reps for each set till muscle failure then write down the number of reps achieved, and use that historical set data to design next gym visit, this is the worlds simplest lifting program.

Another general note about "programs" is lifting is much like diet in that there are some plans that are very simple and some that are very complicated and both CAN work well although which works best for which person requires experiment. For example there are extremely complicated diet programs with incredible attention to detail and discipline, and then there's "Don't eat it if your ancestors couldn't eat it" and both can work very well (although one sells many more books than the other...).

Likewise the ridiculous simple workout plan is, on the short term, do about three sets with a five minute break in between, a warmup, max, and somewhat less than max, and on the long term plan your workouts such that you get muscle failure at over a dozen reps on the warmup set, and about 7 reps on the max set and 3rd set. Barrels of ink have been spilled on the topic of do two sets vs three sets or aim for muscle failure at exactly 15 for warmup as opposed to 12 or power lifters should max at 4 reps vs body builders should max at precisely 9 reps. All of which is probably true for various individuals in various situations. A better use of your time than reading and researching all that, is make very small changes to that, then look at your spiral notebook and see what is working for you personally.

The only other programs or rules to follow apply to all plans, its very hard to hurt yourself by moving too smooth, or too light of a weight, but the opposite is not true.

[schrodinger]

There's probably people more qualified than I am that can respond, but I have heard a lot of recommendations for and enjoyed https://stronglifts.com/5x5/

Note: I see Starting Strength recommended here too, which I've also heard good things about from my experienced weightlifting friends. I think they're very similar programs, and that book has a lot of good detail on technique.

[jwr]

Stronglifts is a good beginner program, but people over 40 would benefit from reducing the volume (e.g. going from 5x5 to 3x5), as it becomes too much when the weights grow larger.

If you are over 35 (and sedentary), I'd really recommend reading "The Barbell Prescription" https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescription-Strength-Trainin... — it will be a much better guide than most advice available online, which seems to be directed at youngsters.

[SketchySeaBeast]

Starting strength and stronglifts are strongly interchangeable the biggest difference is the volume - starting strength is a 5x3 and stronglifts is 5x5 and stronglifts has a row while starting strength has a power clean. For learning starting strength the book is invaluable as the author describes each lift in exhausting detail, and that's important to understand when you're starting - every day in the gym I see people squatting who should have read some instructions.

I'd argue that at the novice range the extra two sets of volume aren't required - you will literally adapt to anything at this point. That's why there are so many programs that people feel great on for the first three months before they stop making progress. I do, however, like the row instead of the power clean, as many gyms don't have a setup for a power clean, and it's a technically challenging movement. Many years ago when I first started I did starting strength with a row substituted for the power clean, and that took me a good 8 months before I stopped making progress, at which point I jumped over to a 5x5 intermediate program.

[rblatz]

I’m a bit confused with the statement that “many gyms don’t have a setup for power cleans.” I use the same barbell and weights for bench, deadlift, squats, and cleans. I would assume where ever there is space for deadlifts, you could easily use that space for cleans.

[SketchySeaBeast]

You use the same equipment, but it all depends on how nicely you can put the clean down afterwards. If the gym doesn't have a platform and instead has iron weights and a concrete floor, you could be doing some damage to the equipment. The same could be argued with deadlifts, but they are much easier to gracefully put down.

[1maginary]

In case you missed the recommendation below, I'm gonna go ahead and second the GZCLP suggestion. It's much better than 5x5 and SS, deals with plateaus better and you can have more fun with it!

There's a subreddit for it and similar routines created by the same guy, too: /r/gzcl

It only requires 3 days/week at the gym and around 1hr per day

[nradov]

If you're starting out you probably need a trainer more than a routine. It's really easy to injure yourself and you can't necessarily learn the proper movements from watching videos online. Talk to the trainers at your gym and find one with legitimate certification.

[dvtv75]

This is extremely important. A qualified trainer (I'm one, but hate the work, too many people watched a program on a body builder and know all about it) will assess your strength and fitness, determine your goals, and then create a program to help you achieve them, as well as teach you to lift properly and safely.

Poor form can cause long term injuries, soft tissue damage, or even arthritis.

[voidmain0001]

When I'm short on time I do the following routine that I got from my wife's fitness mag:

3 sets of 12 reps descending / ascending of:

* frog jumps - plank pushups

* reverse lunge with overhead press - spiderman crawls

* burpees - leg raise sit ups

Eg: do 12 reps of of frog jumps and one rep of pushups, then immediately do 11 reps of frog jumps and 2 reps of pushups, etc down to 1 rep of frog jumps and 12 reps of pushup. NO resting in between. When done, take a two minute rest, then immediately start the next set. The key to this routine is not resting, and maintaining good form. It offers me a great burning sensation when I do it correctly, and I'm done in less than 25 minutes flat.

[tim333]

Also if you are too lazy for that like myself currently you can achieve quite a lot by just some push ups, jumping and the like for a short period of time.

[weavie]

It probably goes without saying, but it is quite important. Proper technique is vital when strength training. Mobility work is also important. I have injured myself way more than I should because I yanked up a deadlift bar the wrong way, or damaged a shoulder because I didn't warm it up properly.

If you're gonna do it, do it properly.

[badblood]

Would also like to plus one this. I suffered from nagging back and shoulder pain in my mid-twenties until I started regularly lifting. I'd recommend a program like GZCL as an easy, short routine that can be added to over time: https://imgur.com/WIhiBOy

[SketchySeaBeast]

I'd recommend Starting Strength as well for a novice - it's incredibly simple to start out.

https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs

[erinaceousjones]

I'd been getting a touch of RSI pain this year / last year, and I'm still pretty young (mid-twenties).

Taking up bouldering / rock climbing and doing that once or twice a week has improved my grip strength a lot, with the added bonus that I don't remember having any more RSI pain since I started doing it regularly.

So I definitely agree with the original post that environment makes a huge difference, and with this comment about strength training. And I'll say that rock climbing is awesome for improving your grip strength.

Edit: With that comes the caveat that pro rock climbers are more likely to develop arthritis earlier than the average person.. You have to be careful with how you load different parts of your body, and I'd argue it's easier to injure yourself than e.g. doing weights in the gym, if you're not careful.

[appleiigs]

I agree strength training is life changing, but it can aggravate some RSIs. My RSI was similar to tennis elbow and it was from irritating the nerves in elbow from movement. The only solution is to stop flexing the elbow (rest). I fixed it by using 1) trackball mouse, 2) keyboard without num pad (less movement to get to mouse), 3) vim text editor and excel without mouse.

[TomVDB]

I had exactly the same problem. Heavy tendinitis in my right elbow, mostly due to a regimen of squash, badminton, and rock climbing multiple times per week.

I similarly switched to trackball mouse and keyboard without num pad (I was already on vim).

But what helped me more than anything was a keyboard tray that goes below the desk, almost on your lap.

Whenever we move offices at work, it sometimes takes a day or two before the tray is installed and I notice that the discomfort starts coming back quickly.

[dummyfunnytoo]

I had a very similar experience. I stick to a 10 keyless keyboard (no numpad) but I gave up on the trackball. I use a wireless trackpad now because I ended up with pains in my thumb after a couple years of the trackball. I could probably have used a better quality trackball but the selection is/was limited.

vim support in IntelliJ is pretty good these days so that's a huge help too. I had to abandon emacs and my claw movements early in life...

[appleiigs]

Thanks for the “lower the keyboard” tip. I’ll try it out, although most likely will be raising my seat.

[TruthSHIFT]

It's possible that both you and OP experienced relief for the same reason: you both found a way to increase blood flow.

[ronaldj]

For me it was rock climbing. I had been suffering for a couple of years. I had been to the doctor a couple of times, but I wasn't really getting much out of the exercises he prescribed or the medication. I happened to start doing indoor rock climbing and I noticed my symptoms slowly becoming less frequent. I climbed for about 2 years and during that time my symptoms got much better.

[toasterlovin]

Upvotes are invisible, so I’m going to jump in and plus one this. If you’ve never gotten stronger, there is no better way you can spend 3 hours per week. Buy Starting Strength and change your life.

[marliechiller]

no need to even buy anything. youtube and reddit have great strength training learning materials freely accessible. r/bodyweightfitness on reddit is a great place to start without even needing a gym membership

[melling]

Yeah, that’s one of common things people claim. Someone has said pushups would do the trick.

Tavis Rudd in this Programming by Voice video thought his rock climbing helped prevent issues before he got RSI.

https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI

I’ve cataloged lots of solutions:

https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes

[koolba]

Never heard of it before but farmer's walk look like a nice exercise[1].

Any issue with doing them with dumbbells v.s. something slightly longer? Imagining the range of motion I feel like the dumbbells may sway and feel awkward.

[1]: https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/farmers-walk

[castlecrasher2]

Dumbbells work great for farmers walks. You get them heavy enough and it's your body that's swaying.

[VLM]

I find lifting relaxing and stress reducing, and the linked article mentions the author had other techniques for stress reduction of varying levels of success. Aside from stress reduction there is probably also some fraction of better muscles and tendons via lifting result in less RSI pain.

I think this explains the effect where a guy starts lifting and the pain goes away in a week, although it takes a little while longer than a week to obtain a professional powerlifter physique.

Something to consider is bro-science in lifting, which is rampant. I machine/circuit train lift because the odds of going out with a back injury from freeweight squatting is maybe 10% annually, but the odds of injury on the machines is approximately zero. If your whole point of lifting is becoming a world class athlete then you MUST freeweight and accept you'll spend some time in the ER and hospital due to injury because the machines don't have the capacity; I max out the leg press at 400 while the freeweight guys at the gym do much more. On the other hand if you merely want to be the strongest healthiest guy you know outside of the gym or want to prevent injury or improve lifestyle in general, the machines are more than good enough. Basically freeweights are for people trying to win a competition (and there's nothing wrong with that) whereas the machines are for injury and lifestyle improvement, so pick the right tool for the job. On the topic of bro-science, unless you're putting in lumberjack levels of effort and superman strength, ignore all the supplement and diet advice specific to lifting; I started doing bicep curls with 50 pounds and you don't need to eat 17 raw eggs per day or take 42 pills per day to curl 50 pounds, the exotic stuff is for people performing exotic activities. If you're trying to lose weight, its true that you can't outrun a fork, but weight lifting is an entirely different topic than either weight loss or aerobics, so bro-science for aerobics people or fat people isn't relevant ... although you probably should be eating paleo / low carb regardless of exercise routine.

[chrishynes]

Puts down bro-science. Then proceeds to bro-science. Classic.

"a back injury from freeweight squatting is maybe 10% annually, but the odds of injury on the machines is approximately zero"

Got a cite for this? My pure N=1 experience is that I've only ever been injured on machines forcing the body into unnatural movement patterns, while I've been squatting for 10 years with no issues. Sure I only squat a few hundred pounds, not like the 1000+ lb monsters.

[jschwartzi]

Yeah, I've never injured myself doing squats either. I don't squat more than a few-hundred pounds and I warm up and stretch before lifting. The only injuries I've ever sustained were from lifting heavy without a warm-up set and some stretches first.

Squats actually require a lot of hamstring flexibility to perform correctly, and most people don't have that. The basic compound lifts are generally very technically challenging and can take years to master. If you approach it like a meathead, don't be surprised when you get meathead injuries.

[dwaltrip]

Machines keep the weights on a track. With free weights, your muscles have to maintain the "track" all by themselves. My understanding is that doing so gives a much more comprehensive and well-rounded work out, as all of the stabilizing muscles must be utilized. It also provides more useful strength, as they aren't any "tracks" in regular life when we want to use our muscles for some activity.

The point about injuries, especially for squatting, is definitely a good one though. Although I would want to ask an expert about it.

[yomly]

Your point on stabilising muscles is on point.

This is why pistol squats are worth more than just a body weight * x two-legged squat. This is why yoga is valuable for more than just flexibility.

Isolation of a muscle is all great and can make you look strong, but your body is actually a non-trivial network of muscles distributed across your entire body.

Unless your aim is to lift a big number or look big in a specific way, a gymnasts are a better proxy for balanced strength and they rarely do more than BWEs.

Personally, I do love a good old fashioned barbell squat though...

[VLM]

I do not think the trigonometry works that way if you resolve the vector forces. Surely if I chest press away from my chest, I'm not working the muscles that lift upward in a shoulder press I agree with you on that. That would be awful for the development of my muscles that push upward, but they are not sentient about not getting exercise and they get an excellent workout when I do the shoulder press perhaps ten minutes later, although the shoulder press doesn't work my chest press muscles at all, on a long term scale it doesn't matter. To get a "push upward" stabilizing muscle workout at the same time as I do a chest press, I'd have to lift sqrt(2) times the weight upward at a 45 degree angle, and this is getting kinda ridiculous compared to just hit the shoulder press and the chest press. And of course there are incline settings on the chest press machine that I use...

I'm trying to think of a machine I used today with a "track" where the track would be unavoidable via other exercise or bad. For the leg press I don't want my knee flexing sideways if at all possible but my hips and ankles are movable so kinetically in an engineering force diagram how would my knees "know" that my back was pushing against essentially a chair as opposed to pushing to stand up? If for the sake of argument I accepted that my knees have stabilizing muscles etc, you and I know via cognition and vision that my back was pushing a chair up a track, but from an engineering stress and strain diagram my knees aren't sentient and can't know the difference. The bicep machine and pec fly machine and leg extension machine have a ridiculous array of ball bearings and axles such that I'm only constrained in the circular force direction and the other axes are free over at least a small range, think of like how a car suspension has the wheels continue to turn regardless of the angle the suspension components are hanging at; I could design an inferior machine to do pec fly but my gym thankfully doesn't own one like that...

The row machine is interesting in that via the magic of cables its even less constrained than the oars on my little rowboat where I actually use rowing muscles IRL... The lat pulldown is similar in that if I were to climb a tree I'd be more constrained than I am in the machine...

The leg press is another example of the trig not "working" in that if your lifting form is any good there won't be more than a couple pounds of sideways vector force on your knees if lifting free weights, so putting low/zero side load on the knee in a leg press machine is the same force on the knee. If you run the math on the forces the stabilizing forces are very small with proper free weight form... stand on one leg and hold the other leg out 20 degrees the force on my knee should be mathematically larger than a dead lift freeweight or a leg press.

Furthermore there is infinite ink spilled on the topic of proper form for freeweight lifting, but real world muscle use rarely permits perfect freeweight form, simplifying it to the same problem.

Surely, if machines provided an inferior more dangerous higher risk of injury workout, then people would use free weights to recover from machine injuries, yet that never happens, so inductively I find it highly unlikely.

In regular life I don't want to lift heavy objects. I like the general health benefits and stress reduction and bone density of lifting, I'm not training specifically to deadlift car engine blocks instead of using an engine hoist like a normal person. There are probably people training specifically for vocational purposes where that wouldn't apply, soldiers perhaps.